Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: Hmmmmm! Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 14 Next >>
Author Message
Ali Zaki
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 217
Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Posted: 24 May 2005 at 6:39am
Salam ala kum,

One more hadith about Tabuk (and the reason for leaving Imam Ali (a.s.) behind in Medina)

The Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.s) told Ali (a.s.),
 
"Are you not satisfied that you are having the same position to me as Haroon (a.s.) was having with Musa (a.s.) except that there is no prophet after me. It is not possible that I go away without leaving you as my successor."
(Seerah Ibne Hisham, Vol III, Pg. 520)
 
This shows that the reason that the Prophet (a.s.) left Ali (a.s.) behind was to act as his deputy in his absence. This (as well as many other) examples clearly establish that the prophet APPOINTED his representatives and did not leave it to the Muslims to decide. There are many clear reasons for this, which can be explored later if appropriate.

I have a question for you. The Sunni position is that the mechanism of shura (mutual consoltation) was the established practice of the Prophet, i.e., the Prophet told his companions to mutually consult eachother in regards to decisions of leadership and successorship. Can you give some examples of this from the Sunnah of the Prophet (a.s)?  A follow up question is that if you can establish (using the Sunnah) that shura is appropriate, then why did Abu Bakr APPOINT Omar as the second kaliph?

Salam

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
IP IP Logged
jello
 
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 27 April 2005
Location: Saudi Arabia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 37
Quote jello Replybullet Posted: 24 May 2005 at 11:08am

Salaam Alaykum

I am sorry that I may have been misunderstood, but my question was specific as to whom the Prophet appointed as the head of the expedition to Tabuk from among the other Muslims (except Ali of course, since he had stayed in Madeenah). I am not asking which was more important or less important at this point. So Insha Allah if the members Ali Zaki or Abu Hadi could shed some light on the answer to this specific question, it would be good...



Edited by jello
Great love for Jesus Led Me to Islam (http://www.geocities.com/hosseincaraballo)

http://www.lulu.com/content/213359.
IP IP Logged
Ali Zaki
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 217
Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Posted: 24 May 2005 at 12:34pm

Salaam Jello,

I have read several accounts, however, I am not able to determine that there was a particular person that was considered the "head of the expedition". There is two possible reasons for this 1.) Since the prophet was with them, noone held the position of Imam other than the Prophet (a.s.) himself 2.) Since there was no battle (as the Romans had left before the Muslims arrived), there was noone designated as "standard bearer", which is usually recognized as the commander of the army (after the Prophet, of course, if he is present).

Is this what you wanted?

Salam

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
IP IP Logged
jello
 
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 27 April 2005
Location: Saudi Arabia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 37
Quote jello Replybullet Posted: 24 May 2005 at 12:49pm

Salaam

Well, saying that the Prophet (SAW) was with them and therefore they did not need a leader is contradictory of course, since the Prophet always appointed someone as leader of the expedition even when he was present. The issue of "standard bearer" was not limited only to the time when the battle was to begin, but was from the time the expedition started.

One more thing is that in any expedition, there would obviously be many sub-expeditions that the Prophet would command for people to do, so perhaps we can also look into that ??? Not only for Tabuk but for other expeditions as well, though in this case we are talking about Tabuk only.

In any case, perhaps Ali Zaki can give us the references he has read, and perhaps together we can come to a conclusion in this regard, if he believes I have missed some point, etc.



Edited by jello
Great love for Jesus Led Me to Islam (http://www.geocities.com/hosseincaraballo)

http://www.lulu.com/content/213359.
IP IP Logged
Abu Hadi
 
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: 13 May 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 29
Quote Abu Hadi Replybullet Posted: 25 May 2005 at 3:08am

Salams,

I have also been doing some research online regarding the expedition of Tabuk. I have not been able to find information from any reliable source regarding the placement of commanders in certain positions and who fulfilled those positions. I agree with br. jello that it was the practice of the Prophet(p.b.u.h) to appoint generals, commanders, leuitenants, etc. in military campaigns as is done in modern military structures. I am not familiar with sources where these positions are recorded, except when the Prophet(p.b.u.h) wanted to distinguish one of the companions by praising them.

A General point regarding the Companions (Sahaba) from the Jaafari perspective

There is an obvious point here that I believe is being lost in the discussion. There were many of the Companions(Sahaba) who had meritous qualities worthy of being praised. They were the first people who accepted the religion of Islam and supported the Prophet(p.b.u.h) and made all sorts of sacrifices and endured hardship for many years for the cause of Al Islam. Amoung this group is Abu Bakr,  As Siddiq, Umar Al Khattib, Jafar At Tayyar, Sommayya(the first women martyr),  As Shahhid Hamza AssadAllah, Abu Talib, father of Imam Ali, Imam Ali, Sayyida Khaddija, who was the first women to accept Islam,  etc. All this is well known and not disputed.

All of the above muslims had special qualities. But amoung this group there was one who was unique, in the following ways

- None of the other companions were designated as 'mawla' in a general sense, as Imam Ali was on the day of Ghadeer

- None of the other companions above were considered 'purified', i.e. granted immunity from error (Hadith Qisa)

- None of the other above companions had their authority joined with the authority of the Prophet himself(p.b.u.h)(You are to me as Haron was to Musa... and other hadith)

- None of the other companions had as many (in terms of quantity and quality) authentic hadith narrated in their praise as Imam Ali(a.s.). When I say authentic hadith, I mean hadith narrated from multiple independent lines of transmission, and the chain of narrators does not include anyone who was know to fabricate fake hadith.

 

There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error...
Quran Ch.2 Verse 256
IP IP Logged
Ali Zaki
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 217
Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Posted: 25 May 2005 at 7:31am

Salam ala kum to Jello and others,

"saying that the Prophet (SAW) was with them and therefore they did not need a leader is contradictory of course, since the Prophet always appointed someone as leader of the expedition even when he was present"

I think we are getting a little too deep into symantics here. When I say that the prophet was their leader, I mean in the absolute sense of the "Imamate". In any organization that has ever existed, authority is delegated downward by neccesity. If you have a particular point you would like to make regarding WHO was delegated for WHAT leadership position during this expedition then please enlighten us.

REGARDING OTHER COMPANIONS AND DELEGATION VS. " SHURA".

I think I know where you're going with your questions, but I'll wait to you take us there to make any detailed comments. In general, however, I would like to say that our position is not that everything was decided by the Prophet alone, without consulation with others. Our position is also not that there were not other pious, knowledgabe and corageous Muslims among the companions that were given limited authority during the limetime of the Prophet(a.s.). On the other hand, the Holy Quran tells us that we must make the Prophet the judge in our affairs,

" "By your Lord, they can have no faith until they make you (Prophet Muhammad) a judge in all disputes between them and find in themselves no resistance against your decision and accept it with full submission." 4:65

In conclusion, my point is not to say that the Holy Messenger (a.s.) was a dictator (God forbid), or that he only delegated authority to Imam Ali (a.s.). The point is that if the Quran is our guide, and the Holy Messenger is our judge in all disputes, then we must follow his judgements and disregard our own personal opinions and wishes.

Salam

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
IP IP Logged
jello
 
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 27 April 2005
Location: Saudi Arabia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 37
Quote jello Replybullet Posted: 30 May 2005 at 6:26am

Salam

I am not feeling well for the time being, so I will make my reply short...

Mister Abu Hadi said that he had not been able to find reliable sources about the Tabuk expedition from the Internet. Could I ask where are the reliable Saheeh Shia narrations about the various things that occured during that expedition (and to stay bogged down with this incident only) and of other military assignments the Prophet led or instructed the Muslims to participate in.

Of course, there may be "Arabic only" books on this matter, but Insha Allah I will ask an Arab brother to look into them, if the books are given in this respect...

Sorry that I was unable to answer the other issues for the time being, but I suppose it is important for us to have the Saheeh history as seen by Shia narrators, etc., before we say any other thing.

Great love for Jesus Led Me to Islam (http://www.geocities.com/hosseincaraballo)

http://www.lulu.com/content/213359.
IP IP Logged
Ali Zaki
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 217
Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Posted: 31 May 2005 at 7:58am

Salam Jello,

I'm sorry to hear you are not feeling well. May Allah preserve and heal you.

I'm sorry, but I'm not quite sure where we are going with this Tabuk expidition. I will list some Shia sources of information, as requested.

http://al-islam.org/lifeprophet/21.htm

http://al-islam.org/restatement/34.htm

(the above link also quotes British and European Historians, Like Sir John Glubb and others. Of course, these secular historians are not considered "Saheeh", however, we accept their version of historical events in this matter because they agree with other sources which we know to be Saheeh)

Here are some more Islamic Web Sources

http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Articles/companion/27_ali _bin_talib.htm

http://www.ptv.com.pk/webptv/PBUH-adetail21.asp

Salam

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 14 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com