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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
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Rehmat
 
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Quote Rehmat Replybullet Posted: 29 March 2005 at 7:33am

Originally posted by Mustafaa

[QUOTE=Rehmat] ....Sufis are generally Sunnis, as far as I know. Are the Safawis really deemed a Sufi group? When they first appeared in the political stage, they believed in a non-mainstream Shiite branch. Later they adopted mainstream Twelver (Imaami) Shi'ism and spread it in Iran. The Safawis were originally Turks, and their early understanding of Shiism was affected by pre-Islamic Shamanistic beliefs of the Turks. As I have said just now, they later adopted mainstream Twelver Shiism.

Sorry that's not true either - historically speaking.

Shi’ism, which today appears closely mingled with the whole Iranian sense of national identity, was in its origin almost entirely a stranger to Iran. The origin of Shi’ism is said to be the Iranian response to an ‘Arab Islam’. Apart from the inappropriateness of these ethnic categories, there is simple fact that the earliest Shi’is were themselves, with few exceptions, Arabs, and Iran was for a long time an overwhelming Sunni country. Aside from a few centers, traditional centers such as Qum, Shi’ism was little represented in Iran.

In the aftermath of the Mongol conquest of the Muslim Near East in the 13th century, when the authority of the Abbasid Caliphate was shattered and destroyed, with the consequent weakening at least in official position of Sunni thought, a gradual increase in influence of Shi’ism in Iran began to be noticed. However, upto 16th century, Iran was still an overwhelmingly Sunni country.

The two forces, which spread Shi’ism in Iran the most were both non-Iranian. The first was the Safavid dynasty (1502-1722), originally a Turkish speaking family of hereditary Sufi shaykhs centred in the Northwestern frontiers lands of Iran. Transforming itself into a contender for power, it recruited a large number of followers from outside Iran from Turkic nomads of Asia Minor, Syria and the Southern Caucasus. Afterwards the Safavids for political reasons manufactured a false genealogy for themselves – seeking descent from Imam Musa Kazim, the seventh Shi’I Imam. However, subsequent historical research has proved this claim to be false.

After, the Safavids consolidated their power in Iran, they decided to convert the majority, if necessary, by force to Shi’ism. (Source: Extract from a lecture by professor Dr. Hamid Algar, a Shi'ite scholar)

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Mustafaa
 
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Quote Mustafaa Replybullet Posted: 29 March 2005 at 9:03am

The sources do not explain what they mean by a 'Sufi branch'. The early beliefs of the Safawis may have had Sufi elements, but they were the heretic 'Kizilbash' Turks  originally. (Kizil bash means 'red head' in Turkish.)

However, the online sources that I have just checked make a distinction between the Safawi family and the Kizilbash Turkmens who supported this family. They seem to suggest that the Safawi family was not one of the heretic Kizilbashs... I do not know the exact fact anyway...

EDIT: Addition: They also seem to suggest that there have been different groups that are named 'Kizilbash'. I'm a bit confused, but I can't delve into Safawi history now...



Edited by Mustafaa
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Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 29 March 2005 at 9:04am

Originally posted by Rehmat

There are several Haddiths which mentions division of Ummah into 72 or so, sects.

Yes to the hadiths but it doesn't mean that today there are 72 sects  

I think people have a misunderstanding that when something of a future issue is discussed like the above, 'there will be 72 sects' they think its all formed 'now'

but then again I don't know how many there are today there could be 72

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Quote Mustafaa Replybullet Posted: 29 March 2005 at 9:10am
The number 72 is not to be taken literally. It only denotes a large number of sects. This is a device of the Classical Arabic language that is frequently encountered; they say a number but what they mean is only 'a large number'.
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Quote Aliya Replybullet Posted: 29 March 2005 at 9:18am
i notice a new trend amongst some muslims nowadays to interpret qur'an on their own, rejecting tafsir, hadith, and scholars etc. So I personally think the number is much higher than 72 because of such deviation based on personal interpretation
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Quote Aliya Replybullet Posted: 29 March 2005 at 9:24am

Also

Variants of Shi'a Islam

The variants of Shi'a Islam differ regarding the rights of succession after the death of Prophet Muhammad, but they agree that the Imams were usurped from their rightful position.

Sevener Shi': The Ismailis are the largest group among Sevener Shi'as.

Fiver Shi'as or Zaidis: A group that is found mostly in Yemen that believes in the four Caliphs of Islam like the Sunnis, and thereafter Hasan and Hussayn and Ali ibn Husayn thereafter they hold to the Imamate of Zayd bin Ali bin Hussayn. Zaydis also reject the notion of divinely appointed Imams.

Both major Shi'a sects believe that the last Imam (either the seventh or the twelfth) has been hidden alive by God. Beliefs vary as to what will happen when the last Imam, called the Mahdi ("the guided one"). It is generally believed that the last Imam will be accompanied by Jesus and will affirm Muhammad's message to mankind from God.

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Quote Rehmat Replybullet Posted: 29 March 2005 at 11:25am

Originally posted by Angel

...but then again I don't know how many there are today there could be 72

That's really interesting observation - I mean someone 'dosn't know' but still like to criticize others' opinion

Yes Muslims have 72 sects; Christians have 73, while Jews have 71. Now please spare me to list all of them

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Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 29 March 2005 at 10:03pm
Originally posted by Rehmat

Originally posted by Angel

...but then again I don't know how many there are today there could be 72

That's really interesting observation - I mean someone 'dosn't know' but still like to criticize others' opinion  

hehehe

Yes Muslims have 72 sects; Christians have 73, while Jews have 71. Now please spare me to list all of them 

someone has done their homework  ok I spare you the job of listing them all but it would be interesting to see , maybe one day

And by the way, there's another hmmmm...72 sects, 72 virgins - a conspiracy going on  nausheen should have left the conspiracy forum

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