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Message Icon Topic: Sarah,Sarai Abrahams wife and his sister??? Post Reply Post New Topic
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Placid
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 10 January 2014 at 1:52pm

You can search further online for the ancestors of Ammon and Moab, if you like.

Quote from Wikipedia: According to the biblical account, Ammon and Moab were born to Lot and Lot's younger and elder daughters, respectively, in the aftermath of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. The Bible refers to both the Ammonites and Moabites as the "children of Lot".Genesis 19:37-38
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iec786
 
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Quote iec786 Replybullet Posted: 12 January 2014 at 4:04am
Originally posted by Caringheart





Originally posted by iec786

Hi Caringheart,

Yes it is puzzling and a sad one too.I think the Bible writers have made a grave mistake with this one to say that. Personally as a Muslim, I don't believe that Sarah was Abraham's biological sister.

My answer to caringheart is we do not believe in the sister marriage at all.

Peace be unto you.
Ismail
Greetings Ismail,So I am presuming then that the qur'an is silent on the matter? You do not believe in sister marriage, but this is based on what? What does the qur'an say?Where can I read about Abram and Sarai in the qur'an?Shukran and salaam,Caringheartnote: You didn't answer though... How is it that you come to the conclusion of Isaac being a b___d? Have you changed that thought?




Hi Carringheart,

How are you?
The question you posed is not really a question but a poser.

Let us work from the statement.

(a) "Why saidst thou (O Abraham), she is my sister? So I might have
taken her to me to WIFE . . . now take her (Sarah) and go thy
Way." GENESIS 12:19
(b) "And yet INDEED she (Sarah) is my sister (!) . . . and she
became my (Abraham's) WIFE." GENESIS 20:12

So Sarah is Abrahams sister from his own words,so this is an incest marriage,the children from an incestrious marraige is?????You can answer it you do not have to be a rocket scientist.

As for the Quran it is the speech of Allah and not a history book.The Quran deals with facts and it is a warner of what is in store for those who disobey the teachings of Allah.

Who slept with who and who went into who no my dear it has no place for *sex and sexual promiscuity.


Carringheart i have just come across the same story just differant characters.I wonder if this is not some one taking a chance writing what he feels or looking for a story.

6 And Isaac dwelt in Gerar:

7 And the men of the place asked him of his wife; and he said, She is my sister: for he feared to say, She is my wife; lest, said he, the men of the place should kill me for Rebekah; because she was fair to look upon.

8 And it came to pass, when he had been there a long time, that Abimelech king of the Philistines looked out at a window, and saw, and, behold, Isaac was sporting with Rebekah his wife.

9 And Abimelech called Isaac, and said, Behold, of a surety she is thy wife; and how saidst thou, She is my sister? And Isaac said unto him, Because I said, Lest I die for her.

Peace be unto you
Ismail.

The butcher of Sabra & Shatila is no more.The devil better watch out.





Edited by iec786 - 12 January 2014 at 4:14am
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iec786
 
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Quote iec786 Replybullet Posted: 12 January 2014 at 4:11am
Originally posted by Placid


You can search further online for the ancestors of Ammon and Moab, if you like.

Quote from Wikipedia: According to the biblical account, Ammon and Moab were born to Lot and Lot's younger and elder daughters, respectively, in the aftermath of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. The Bible refers to both the Ammonites and Moabites as the "children of Lot".Genesis 19:37-38




Hi Placid,

Could you please look up these verses.

(a) "Why saidst thou (O Abraham), she is my sister? So I might have
taken her to me to WIFE . . . now take her (Sarah) and go thy
Way." GENESIS 12:19
(b) "And yet INDEED she (Sarah) is my sister (!) . . . and she
became my (Abraham's) WIFE." GENESIS 20:12
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 13 January 2014 at 10:39am
Originally posted by iec786


Who slept with who and who went into who no my dear it has no place for *sex and sexual promiscuity.

Carringheart i have just come across the same story just differant characters.I wonder if this is not some one taking a chance writing what he feels or looking for a story.

6 And Isaac dwelt in Gerar:

7 And the men of the place asked him of his wife; and he said, She is my sister: for he feared to say, She is my wife; lest, said he, the men of the place should kill me for Rebekah; because she was fair to look upon.

8 And it came to pass, when he had been there a long time, that Abimelech king of the Philistines looked out at a window, and saw, and, behold, Isaac was sporting with Rebekah his wife.

9 And Abimelech called Isaac, and said, Behold, of a surety she is thy wife; and how saidst thou, She is my sister? And Isaac said unto him, Because I said, Lest I die for her.

Peace be unto you
Ismail.

The butcher of Sabra & Shatila is no more.The devil better watch out.

Greetings Ismail,

Abram and Sarai, according to what is written, were only half-brother, half-sister. 
"she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother"

I do not imagine in those times this would have been considered incestuous.  We now know how backwards it is, but in those times I can imagine it was acceptable, as were so many other things we now know better about.

Regarding your other comments;
What about... Doesn't the qur'an teach which hand you must use for going to the bathroom, and which hand must be used for eating?  with no regard for the natural inclination of a person to left, or right-handedness? 
Yet you think it would be ridiculous for the qur'an to address the issues we discuss here?  Islam is far more explicit than the Bible, on details of private living, to the point of intrusive.  I don't know how much of it comes from the qur'an and how much comes from hadith, but who are you kidding?  The qur'an has plenty to say on the subject of sex... but it nowhere tells the history of the most important man in the history of the religion?  The Creator thought it more important to teach about hand washing, how to go to the bathroom, and when and how to have sex?

The story you relate regarding Isaac is an illustration of how sons will repeat the transgressions of the previous generations.

I don't understand the comment about the 'butcher of Sabra and Shatila'?

Salaam and blessings to you,
Caringheart
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 14 January 2014 at 7:46pm
Originally posted by Placid


You can search further online for the ancestors of Ammon and Moab, if you like.

Quote from Wikipedia: According to the biblical account, Ammon and Moab were born to Lot and Lot's younger and elder daughters, respectively, in the aftermath of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. The Bible refers to both the Ammonites and Moabites as the "children of Lot".Genesis 19:37-38


Incidentally, the first article I published on my new blog partly dealt with this story in the Bible.  I think it was Israelite propaganda designed to demonize the Moabites and Ammonites, who were their bitterest enemies.  What better way to do that than claim that their ancestors were the result of incestuous relationships!

http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/01/normal-0-false-false-false-en-us-x-none.html
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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iec786
 
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Quote iec786 Replybullet Posted: 16 February 2014 at 10:52am

[/QUOTE]Greetings Ismail,Abram and Sarai, according to what is written, were only half-brother, half-sister. "she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother"I do not imagine in those times this would have been considered incestuous. We now know how backwards it is, but in those times I can imagine it was acceptable, as were so many other things we now know better about.Regarding your other comments;What about... Doesn't the qur'an teach which hand you must use for going to the bathroom, and which hand must be used for eating? with no regard for the natural inclination of a person to left, or right-handedness? Yet you think it would be ridiculous for the qur'an to address the issues we discuss here? Islam is far more explicit than the Bible, on details of private living, to the point of intrusive. I don't know how much of it comes from the qur'an and how much comes from hadith, but who are you kidding? The qur'an has plenty to say on the subject of sex... but it nowhere tells the history of the most important man in the history of the religion? The Creator thought it more important to teach about hand washing, how to go to the bathroom, and when and how to have sex?The story you relate regarding Isaac is an illustration of how sons will repeat the transgressions of the previous generations.I don't understand the comment about the 'butcher of Sabra and Shatila'?Salaam and blessings to you,Caringheart[/QUOTE]


Hi Caringheart,

One father two mothers.are not half but full brothers and sisters.
I do not imagine in those times this would have been considered incestuous.


Yes it was incestrous imagion or not.

Regarding your other comments;
What about... Doesn't the qur'an teach which hand you must use for going to the bathroom, and which hand must be used for eating? with no regard for the natural inclination of a person to left, or right-handedness?


weather you left handed or right handed makes no difference you will still use your left hand to wash your backside and you left out with water,not just toilet paper you see just toilet paper leaves a smell in Islam we leave nothing to chance.



Islam is far more explicit than the Bible, on details of private living, to the point of intrusive. I don't know how much of it comes from the qur'an and how much comes from hadith, but who are you kidding? The qur'an has plenty to say on the subject of sex...


You are now trying to judge the Quran by your Bible standards.let us take a few points in discussing this topic of sex in the Bible.
The different types of sex in the Bible.
Samson has SEX with a whore in Gaza. JUDGES 16:1

Ruth COHABITS with Boaz in the barn. RUTH 3:4-15

David SLEEPS with a young virgin. 1 KINGS 11:1,3

INCEST :now for the different types of incest as if this is a book on incest.

"Sexual intercourse between two persons who are
too closely related." (New Collins Dictionary). For example,
between father and daughter, son and mother, father-in-law and
daughter-in-law, brother and sister, etc.


INCEST IN GOD'S BOOK (?) BETWEEN A FATHER AND HIS
DAUGHTERS:
(a) "That night they (both the daughters of Lot) gave him (their
father Lot) wine to drink, and the older daughter had
INTERCOURSE with him ...
"The next day the older daughter said to her sister, l slept with
him last night: now let's get him drunk again tonight, and you
sleep with him. Then each of us will have a child by our father.
"So that night they got him drunk, and the younger daughter
had INTERCOURSE with him ...
"In this way both of Lot's daughters became PREGNANT by
their father." GENESIS 19:33-35 (From the "Good News Bible in Today's
English").
In the older Versions, like the King James and the Roman Catholic
Versions, "SEXUAL INTERCOURSE" is vaguely described as
"COLLECTING THE SEED OF OUR FATHER."
INCEST BETWEEN MOTHER AND SON:
(b) "While Jacob (Israel) was living in the land, Reuben (his
firstborn, his eldest son) had SEXUAL


INTERCOURSE with Bilhah, his father's concubine. "
GENESIS 35:22.
The older Versions of the Bible, use the word, "lay" for SEXUAL
INTERCOURSE.
INCEST BETWEEN FATHER-IN-LAW AND DAUGHTER-IN-LAW:
(c) "When Judah saw her (Tamar, his daughter-in-law), he thought
she was a prostitute, because she had covered her face.
"He went over to her at the side of the road and said, "ALL
RIGHT, HOW MUCH DO YOU CHARGE?" (He did not
know that she was his daughter-in-law)
"She said what will you give me?" (To have sex with me).
"He answered, I WILL SEND YOU A YOUNG GOAT
FROM MY FLOCK.
"She said, "All right, if you will give me something to keep as a
pledge until you send the goat.
". . . He gave them (the pledges) to her. Then had
INTERCOURSE, and she became pregnant." GENESIS 38:15-I8
(Quoted from the "Good News Bible").


Out of this incestuous relationship between a father-in-law and his
daughter-in-law, twins were born, who were destined to become the
great-grand-fathers of Jesus Christ. See MATTHEW 1:3
"And Judas begat Phares and Zarah of Thamar . . ."
INCEST AND RAPE BETWEEN BROTHER AND SISTER:
(d) ". . . he took hold of her (Thamar, his sister, not to be confused
with Thamar in "c" above), and said unto her, Come lie with me
(have sex with me), my sister. 2 Samuel 13:11
"And she answered him, Nay, my brother (Amnon, one of the
sons of David, the man after God's own heart), do not force me .
. ." 2 Samuel 13:12
"But he would not listen to her; and since he was stronger
than she was, he overpowered her and RAPED her (his
sister)." 2 Samuel 13:14
WHOLESALE RAPE AND INCEST BETWEEN SON AND HIS
MOTHERS!
(e) "So they set up a tent for Absalom (another son of King David)
on the palace roof, and in the sight of everyone, Absalom went
in and had INTERCOURSE with his father's concubines ." 2
SAMUEL 16:22
(f) For other various types of incest see LEVITICUS 18:8-18, 20:11-
14 and 17-21.


These are just a few topics of sex in the Bible.The Quran does not have any of this trash in it.


I don't understand the comment about the 'butcher of Sabra and Shatila'?


I just posted that Sharon the killer was dead.

peace to you
Ismail
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 17 February 2014 at 12:48pm
Originally posted by iec786


Hi Caringheart,

One father two mothers.are not half but full brothers and sisters.
...
peace to you
Ismail

Greetings Ismail,

I am sure that you have knowledge of DNA and that you must understand that one father, two mothers, does not produce 'full brothers and sisters', but only half, since they share only half of their DNA... that which came from their father... but the DNA from their mothers causes them to be half, not fully related.

As far as what you posted about sex in the Bible... these are the stories of things which occurred.  Your point was that they had no place in the scriptures... but the scriptures record the history of the behavior of the people... good and bad.
Your feeling was that the subject of sex had no place in scripture, and I was pointing out that the qur'an, and hadith, have plenty of place for the subject of sex.

Salaam,
CLynn


Edited by Caringheart - 17 February 2014 at 12:53pm
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
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iec786
 
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Quote iec786 Replybullet Posted: 18 February 2014 at 9:58am
Originally posted by Caringheart



Originally posted by iec786


Hi Caringheart,

One father two mothers.are not half but full brothers and sisters.
...peace to you
Ismail
Greetings Ismail,I am sure that you have knowledge of DNA and that you must understand that one father, two mothers, does not produce 'full brothers and sisters', but only half, since they share only half of their DNA... that which came from their father... but the DNA from their mothers causes them to be half, not fully related.As far as what you posted about sex in the Bible... these are the stories of things which occurred. Your point was that they had no place in the scriptures... but the scriptures record the history of the behavior of the people... good and bad.Your feeling was that the subject of sex had no place in scripture, and I was pointing out that the qur'an, and hadith, have plenty of place for the subject of sex.Salaam,CLynn



Hi CLynn,nice name somewhat different.    

Ok what do you think Abraham meant when he said,

12 Besides, she really is my sister, the daughter of my father though not of my mother; and she became my wife.

Was he considering the DNA factor or did he really think it was his sister???

Do you know of anyone married to his half sister or brother.

My own opinion even if you share half of the DNA you could not marry
one another it would be incest.

The sex factor in the Quran is to teach men what you are allowed to do and what is forbidden to you.

The Bible gives you account like the story of Jacob and his daughter in law.Lot and his daughters i mean what is the moral of the story???

say well
Ismail
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