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TG12345
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 26 December 2013 at 9:11pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by TG12345

Originally posted by NABA

At tg12345 even Abu loren is not wrong at all he is telling what he sees,I am firm that Quran is the word of Allah, there is no doubt about that,I accept ur gratitude but its bcoz of Allah I m quoting verses Alhamdullilah, I want to ask u a simple questiion, y u celebrate Christmas on 25 dec??? Where in the bible it is written????

Salaam Alaikum. If Abu Loren saw some Christians behaving shamefully during Christmas this does not mean that Christmas is about behaving shamefully. Similarly, if someone sees Muslims behaving shamefully during Ramadan, this does not mean that Ramadan is about behaving shamefully.

The Bible does not say to celebrate Christmas on December 25, or to celebrate Christmas at all. We have no idea when Jesus was born, the church stated it was on December 25th, but the Bible says no such thing.

Many Christians celebrate the birth of Jesus on December 25th, others do so in January. Some do not celebrate Christmas at all.

Nothing in the Bible either allows or prohibits the birth of Jesus. We are told to glorify God, so celebrating Christmas is one way to do that. It is an optional thing, though. One is not saved or not saved by celebrating or not celebrating it.

Thumbs%20Up

Salaam fee Yasua, my sister in Christ!

Thanks for the thumbs up, and I hope you have had a great Christmas, if you celebrated it!

Allahma3k! Blessed be His Name!
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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 27 December 2013 at 9:51am
I don't doubt that some Christians do what you guys do but at least in the UK Christmas is what I've described. It's an excuse to get drunk and fornicate.
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 27 December 2013 at 11:34am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

I don't doubt that some Christians do what you guys do but at least in the UK Christmas is what I've described. It's an excuse to get drunk and fornicate.

Greetings Abu Loren,

This is sad, if true, but I, not so long ago, watched this and was impressed at how much worship is still alive in the UK. (or was in 2010 anyway)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SHIrS6pMG4

Salaam,
Caringheart


Edited by Caringheart - 27 December 2013 at 11:36am
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
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TG12345
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 27 December 2013 at 2:35pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

I don't doubt that some Christians do what you guys do but at least in the UK Christmas is what I've described. It's an excuse to get drunk and fornicate.

I don't doubt that there are people in the UK who are either bad Christians or people who think they are Christians, who use this day as an excuse to fornicate and get drunk. There are people like that in Canada and the US also.

That however is their fault, not the fault of Christmas. Christmas is the celebration of the coming of Jesus Christ, nothing more and nothing less. It is not about buying presents or even spending time with family, though many families get together and celebrate on that day and there is nothing wrong with that in my opinion. However, the purpose of Christmas is to celebrate the coming of Jesus. Fornication and drunkenness are condemned in the Bible as sins, so the people who act in such st**id ways are not celebrating Christmas or acting as Christians.



You may or may not be aware of this, but in Egypt during the month of Ramadan in 2006 and during years prior to that, domestic violence and crime rate went up.

I guess this means that Ramadan is about beating your wife and killing people you don't like, right?

Or are people to blame, and not the religion?

http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http://www.dailystaregypt.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=3746&date=2011-07-12


Try to apply the same standards to critiquing Christianity that you would like people to apply to Islam.

Do you like it when Christians blame Islam or Muslim holidays or traditions for the behaviour of Muslims who act badly? If not, then why do you do it to us?


Edited by TG12345 - 27 December 2013 at 2:39pm
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 27 December 2013 at 4:39pm
Originally posted by TG12345


Originally posted by NABA

Assalamalecum, we muslims never believe in Christmas because when someone believes in Christmas means he is accepting that Allah had begotten son (nozbillah), Allah says in ch 19 v 88-92-they say Allah had begotten son if sky wud have emotions it cud have burst out, if earth wud have emotions it cud have burst out.
Alaikum Salaam. The Quran contains mistakes and errors and is therefore not the word of God, but what you wrote made a lot more sense than what Abu Loren did. You described why as a Muslim you would never celebrate Christmas, and cited the Quran to explain your answers. That I respect and understand, even if I disagree with you that the Quran is from God.Abu Loren stated Christmas is about drunkenness, drunk driving, and homicide. That is ignorance and stereotyping, and painting all Christians who celebrate Jesus' miraculous birth with the same brush. It is on par with those who claim Ramadan is a time that Muslims kill people, because some extremists use that month as a time to murder non-Muslims.Thank you NABA for using common sense and courtesy, and not stooping down to Abu Loren's level. It is much appreciated.


I agree that Christmas is a time of celebration for those who believe in it and not all Christians involve in drinking and bad behavior. I was invited to one such party at my workplace, I declined to attend after finding out that alcohol will be served.
You say you do not believe Quran to be from God, that is your own belief. I however disagree with you when you say that Quran contains mistakes and thus you do not believe it to be from God. That is your assumption and I can help you sort it out. I can show you that in fact it is the Bible that does not stand the test. If you and I were to study what each one say about God, Jesus, and Salvation, we will find Quran consistent throughout, while the Bible inconsistent.
Happy Holidays!
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 27 December 2013 at 4:58pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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TG12345
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 27 December 2013 at 6:41pm
Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by TG12345


Originally posted by NABA

Assalamalecum, we muslims never believe in Christmas because when someone believes in Christmas means he is accepting that Allah had begotten son (nozbillah), Allah says in ch 19 v 88-92-they say Allah had begotten son if sky wud have emotions it cud have burst out, if earth wud have emotions it cud have burst out.
Alaikum Salaam. The Quran contains mistakes and errors and is therefore not the word of God, but what you wrote made a lot more sense than what Abu Loren did. You described why as a Muslim you would never celebrate Christmas, and cited the Quran to explain your answers. That I respect and understand, even if I disagree with you that the Quran is from God.Abu Loren stated Christmas is about drunkenness, drunk driving, and homicide. That is ignorance and stereotyping, and painting all Christians who celebrate Jesus' miraculous birth with the same brush. It is on par with those who claim Ramadan is a time that Muslims kill people, because some extremists use that month as a time to murder non-Muslims.Thank you NABA for using common sense and courtesy, and not stooping down to Abu Loren's level. It is much appreciated.


I agree that Christmas is a time of celebration for those who believe in it and not all Christians involve in drinking and bad behavior. I was invited to one such party at my workplace, I declined to attend after finding out that alcohol will be served.
You say you do not believe Quran to be from God, that is your own belief. I however disagree with you when you say that Quran contains mistakes and thus you do not believe it to be from God. That is your assumption and I can help you sort it out. I can show you that in fact it is the Bible that does not stand the test. If you and I were to study what each one say about God, Jesus, and Salvation, we will find Quran consistent throughout, while the Bible inconsistent.
Happy Holidays!
Hasan

Salaam Alaikum, honeto. I am going to be going away for a few days and will have little if any access to a computer. I will however post some errors that I see in the Quran, and you are very welcome to respond. I will read your responses later next week, and reply to them.

I believe the most obvious mistake in the Quran is its denial of the divinity of Jesus and His death and resurrection. However, I realize that the divinity and resurrection of Jesus are a matter of faith.

While there is evidence from the writings of Tacitus as well as writings from the early church that states Jesus was crucified, I am aware that many Muslims believe that it was someone else on the cross.

Instead of discussing these, I will post two mistakes that I see, which are very obvious and easy to prove.


I.

The first one concerns verses 25:53 and 55:19,20. These verses state as follows:

25:53

And it is He Who has let free the two seas (kinds of water)*, one palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter, and He has set a barrier and a complete partition between them.

 

55:19,20

He released the two seas, meeting [side by side];

Between them is a barrier [so] neither of them transgresses.

 

*The words in brackets are not in the Quran but is the translators insertion, as can be seen from http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=25&verse=53


There is no such thing as a barrier between two bodies of water that prevents them from "transgressing" when they meet. When waters meet, they always mix to a certain extent. There is no "complete partition" between them when they meet.


II.

The second error is historical. The Quran states in 7:73,74 and 15:80-84 that the Thamud would carve their homes out of rock at Al Hijr, and in verse 27:52 it states that these homes can still be seen, in ruins, since God allegedly destroyed the Thamud.

7:73, 74

To the Thamud people (We sent) Salih, one of their own brethren: He said: "O my people! worship Allah: ye have no other god but Him. Now hath come unto you a clear (Sign) from your Lord! This she-camel of Allah is a Sign unto you: So leave her to graze in Allah's earth, and let her come to no harm, or ye shall be seized with a grievous punishment.

"And remember how He made you inheritors after the 'Ad people and gave you habitations in the land: ye build for yourselves palaces and castles in (open) plains, and care out homes in the mountains; so bring to remembrance the benefits (ye have received) from Allah, and refrain from evil and mischief on the earth."


15:80-84


And verily, the dwellers of Al-Hijr (the rocky tract) denied the Messengers.
And We gave them Our Signs, but they were averse to them.

And they used to hew out dwellings from the mountains (feeling themselves) secure.
But As-Saihah (torment - awful cry etc.) overtook them in the early morning (of the fourth day of their promised punishment days).
And all that which they used to earn availed them not.


27:52

So those are their houses, desolate* because of the wrong they had done. Indeed in that is a sign for people who know.
Surat An-Naml [27:52] - The Noble Qur'an - القرآن الكريم
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Word by Word Grammar, Syntax and Morphology of the Holy Quran

* according to Corpus Quran, the word is "ruined".

We know from history that the Thamud were nomads who traveled from place to place. They left behind them many inscriptions into rock in the form of art, however they never built cities or even permanent settlements.

Earliest Historical and Archaeological Information

The first clear mention of the Nabataeans in historical reference dates back to 312 BC, when Diodorus described Petra and its people during Antigonuss attack on the town (Diodorus XIX 94-97). In was almost three hundred years later that Mada'in Salih was first mentioned by Strabo, who described Galluss attack on Arabia in 24 BC (Strabo, Geography 16.4.24). That meant that the town was established in the last quarter of the first century BC.

However,scholars suggest that the town might have been founded before the Nabataean settlement, in the early part of the first millennium B.C., by the Dedanites (Healey, 1993, 25). Dedan is known as Al-Ula. It was an important station on the main caravan routs from South Arabia to North Arabia and flourished during the sixth century BC. Winnett believes that the Minaean inscriptions in Madain Salih (JS1-5, 33, 34) and the 29 Lihyanite inscriptions are strong evidence that the site had witnessed a Minaean occupation prior to the Nabateans (Winnnet and Reed 1970, 130 Chapter 7). Musil believes that the Nabataeans were initially under Lihyanite rule (1926, 107). Al-Ansari believes that the Minaean inscriptions which are located at various places in al-Ula and Madain Salih indicate trade relations between the two towns and not Minaean rule. Minaeasns were temporary residents in Al-Ula, just as they were in other places, like Greece (Al-Ansari, et al. 1984, 11). Pliny mentioned that Hegra was the Lihyanite capital, while Musil believed that Madain Salih was the capital of the Lihyanies before the Nabataeans (Musil, 1926, 107). There were Nabataean inscriptions located on the road between Tayma and Madain Salih, which translate as saying that Masudu called himself the King of the Lihyanites. Those inscriptions are dated to the second century B.C. (Winnet and Reed, 1970, 120). As the inscriptions are engraved in Nabataean, it may be suggested that perhaps Masudu was a Nabataean. There seems to be no apparent reason for a Lihyanite to write in Nabataean script. Also Masudu is not listed among the known Nabataean kings, so perhaps he was a revolutionary who took over power from the Lihyanites for the time. Subsequently, Madain Salih took the place of Al-Ula as a trade centre.

Reference should be made to the numerous Thamudian inscriptions located in the area. Muslim historians wrote that Al-Hijr was the land of the Thamudians (Al-Istakhari, 24, Al-Hamawi, 2.220-221), Thamud being an old Arabian tribe. There are a large number of so-called Thamudian inscriptions located all over Arabia, which are usually short, and mention the name of the inscriber, or the tribe or the deities. Some contain the SLM (Salam),* a deity of Tayma attributed to the 6th century B.C. There is a general view among scholars that the Thamudians had no permanent land or settlement and that they never established a kingdom. It is likely that the Thamud was the name of a group of several of these tribes (Al-Talhi et al. 1988, 48). However, there is no archaeological evidence from the excavation which can be attributed to an early settlement prior to the Nabataeans.

The archaeological surveys conducted by Winnettt and Reed (1970), by Parr, Harding and Dayton (1971) and the current work do not provide any archaeological material from earlier settlements.

 

Page 179- 180 of report, p 194-195 of the document

 http://eprints.soton.ac.uk/42225/1.hasCoversheetVersion/0000319.pdf


There are more errors in the Quran, but I will leave it there for now. I will gladly read your response and reply when I get the chance, probably in about a week, inshAllah.

The topic of 25:53 and 55:19,20 was discussed on the thread below.

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25822


The topic of the Thamud was discussed on the thread below.

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25890

Feel free to read them and see other arguments people have put forward and my responses to them, or just present your own response. I would prefer if you do it on this thread, so we can have some continuity. If you want to post them on the threads I linked to, please let me know.


Thank you in advance for your patience, as it will take me a few days to get back to you.


PS May I also ask you, do you accept the Sahih hadiths are words of Muhammad, or are you from the Quranist Muslims who reject the hadiths? Thanks.

Allahma3k.

TG12345



Edited by TG12345 - 27 December 2013 at 6:43pm
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Quote herber345 Replybullet Posted: 28 December 2013 at 12:01am
Originally posted by TG12345

Originally posted by NABA

At tg12345 even Abu loren is not wrong at all he is telling what he sees,I am firm that Quran is the word of Allah, there is no doubt about that,I accept ur gratitude but its bcoz of Allah I m quoting verses Alhamdullilah, I want to ask u a simple questiion, y u celebrate Christmas on 25 dec??? Where in the bible it is written????

Salaam Alaikum. If Abu Loren saw some Christians behaving shamefully during Christmas this does not mean that Christmas is about behaving shamefully. Similarly, if someone sees Muslims behaving shamefully during Ramadan, this does not mean that Ramadan is about behaving shamefully.

The Bible does not say to celebrate Christmas on December 25, or to celebrate Christmas at all. We have no idea when Jesus was born, the church stated it was on December 25th, but the Bible says no such thing.

Many Christians celebrate the birth of Jesus on December 25th, others do so in January. Some do not celebrate Christmas at all.

Nothing in the Bible either allows or prohibits the birth of Jesus. We are told to glorify God, so celebrating Christmas is one way to do that. It is an optional thing, though. One is not saved or not saved by celebrating or not celebrating it.


Great explanation, I agree with you... our religious festivals are not for behaving shameful. If someone does anything wrong at that day, we shouldn't blame to religions or festivals. It depends on us how we celebrate our festivals.

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TG12345
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 28 December 2013 at 1:50am
Originally posted by herber345

Originally posted by TG12345

Originally posted by NABA

At tg12345 even Abu loren is not wrong at all he is telling what he sees,I am firm that Quran is the word of Allah, there is no doubt about that,I accept ur gratitude but its bcoz of Allah I m quoting verses Alhamdullilah, I want to ask u a simple questiion, y u celebrate Christmas on 25 dec??? Where in the bible it is written????

Salaam Alaikum. If Abu Loren saw some Christians behaving shamefully during Christmas this does not mean that Christmas is about behaving shamefully. Similarly, if someone sees Muslims behaving shamefully during Ramadan, this does not mean that Ramadan is about behaving shamefully.

The Bible does not say to celebrate Christmas on December 25, or to celebrate Christmas at all. We have no idea when Jesus was born, the church stated it was on December 25th, but the Bible says no such thing.

Many Christians celebrate the birth of Jesus on December 25th, others do so in January. Some do not celebrate Christmas at all.

Nothing in the Bible either allows or prohibits the birth of Jesus. We are told to glorify God, so celebrating Christmas is one way to do that. It is an optional thing, though. One is not saved or not saved by celebrating or not celebrating it.


Great explanation, I agree with you... our religious festivals are not for behaving shameful. If someone does anything wrong at that day, we shouldn't blame to religions or festivals. It depends on us how we celebrate our festivals.


Thank you.
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