Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Science & Technology
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : General : Science & Technology
Message Icon Topic: CAN WE PREFER OUR CHILD SEX? Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 2
Author Message
TG12345
Male Christian
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 December 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 769
Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 08 January 2014 at 5:16am
Originally posted by NABA

Hitler does it but it was only Allah who know that bcoz Allah had created us and he knows us more than ourselves, Allah had described this fact with a parable that Allah is more closer to man than his own jugular vein ch 50 v 16.

I agree that God is closer to man than his own jugular vein.

I disagree that only God knew where Hitler will die. Hitler didn't know for the vast majority of his wasted and evil life, but as it was coming to an end, he did plan to commit suicide in his bunker and did indeed kill himself in it. Hitler did know he was going to die in the bunker, and he did.
IP IP Logged
NABA
Male Islam
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 13 December 2012
Location: India
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 565
Quote NABA Replybullet Posted: 08 January 2014 at 10:26pm
Allah know that because Allah says in Quran in ch 57 v 4 he is always withus, it was plan of Allah how hitler wud die, bcoz Allah is the best planner (ch 3 v 54, ch 27 v 50).
IP IP Logged
TG12345
Male Christian
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 December 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 769
Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 09 January 2014 at 4:11am
Originally posted by NABA

Allah know that because Allah says in Quran in ch 57 v 4 he is always withus, it was plan of Allah how hitler wud die, bcoz Allah is the best planner (ch 3 v 54, ch 27 v 50).

I completely agree with this. Allah knew how and where Hitler will die. But in the last few days of his life, Hitler knew that too.
IP IP Logged
honeto
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 March 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2397
Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 09 January 2014 at 12:20pm
...not for sure! People can plan or think that they will kill themselves as in Hitler's case when things turn against them, but not all succeed. Many people try to kill themselves daily, many do succeed and many do not.
When I sit in front of my lunch to eat, I know I will eat it, and that is not the issue. Allah says, He do let us know as much as He want. "..and they encompass not a thing of His knowledge except for what He wills."2:225
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
IP IP Logged
TG12345
Male Christian
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 December 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 769
Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 09 January 2014 at 3:24pm
Originally posted by honeto

...not for sure! People can plan or think that they will kill themselves as in Hitler's case when things turn against them, but not all succeed. Many people try to kill themselves daily, many do succeed and many do not. 

True, but those who succeed (like Hitler) and choose a place, have successfully perceived where they will die.

Originally posted by honeto


When I sit in front of my lunch to eat, I know I will eat it, and that is not the issue. Allah says, He do let us know as much as He want. "..and they encompass not a thing of His knowledge except for what He wills."2:225
Hasan

This is true, but it doesn't change the fact that some people (like Hitler) have indeed perceived where they will die. Another example would be one of his cronies, Joseph Goebbels, who killed his children with cyanide and then committed suicide with his wife in the courtyard and ordered the SS to bury their bodies.

Both of these mass murdering psychopaths knew where they would breathe in the last bit of oxygen on the planet they helped destroy and ravish.

If we want a less extreme example, consider ex-bassist Mikey Welsh, who predicted he will die in Chicago in two weeks. He had a dream he will die there of a heart attack in his sleep, and decided to write a will. Two weeks, later, he died in a hotel in Chicago. Cause of death was not determined, though he was known to be a heavy drug user.

He may have predicted his cause of death wrongly, but he was right about where he will die.


http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/entertainment/2011/10/weezer-bassist-predicted-his-death-on-twitter/

Yet according to the author of the Quran, no soul perceives where he or she will die.


Edited by TG12345 - 09 January 2014 at 3:38pm
IP IP Logged
islamispeace
 Islam
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 November 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1941
Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 09 January 2014 at 8:04pm
This is yet another example of people simply grasping for straws.  By looking at the context of the verse in question, it can be seen that the claim that there is some "error" that no one in 1400 years has bothered to point out (until now) is laughably absurd:

"Indeed, Allah [alone] has knowledge of the Hour and sends down the rain and knows what is in the wombs. And no soul perceives what it will earn tomorrow, and no soul perceives in what land it will die. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted."

This verse is referring to knowledge of the future, which no person knows, unless of course Allah (swt) revealed it to that person, as in the case of the prophets.  Ask any person whether they will die tomorrow, and they will say "I don't know".  Even a terminally-ill person, who is on his death-bed, will not know exactly at what moment he will die.  It could be now, or in the next 5 minutes, or in the next 5 days etc. 

If a person had intended to commit suicide at some point, obviously he/she knows that he/she will die if the attempt is successful.  But can they say with 100% certainty that they will certainly succeed in their suicide attempt or even go forward with it?  The answer is no.  Say this person intended to commit suicide tomorrow, will they know for sure today that they will not change their mind tomorrow or if they will be successful if they decide to go ahead with the attempt?  Did Hitler know the day before he committed suicide that he was going to commit suicide the next day?  The answer is no.  No one can know for sure.  That is the point of this verse.  To argue that there is some "error" is therefore just a polemical attempt at finding an error, any error, even when there is none.  You might as well also argue that once the person dies, he/she will "perceive" in the next life that he/she has died and hence there is an "error" in the verse!  Of course, such a thought would be laughable.  Obviously, at the moment of our death (if it is not sudden), we know that we are dying and that our time has come.  That is not a revolutionary idea.
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

IP IP Logged
TG12345
Male Christian
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 December 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 769
Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 10 January 2014 at 5:37am
Originally posted by islamispeace

This is yet another example of people simply grasping for straws.  By looking at the context of the verse in question, it can be seen that the claim that there is some "error" that no one in 1400 years has bothered to point out (until now) is laughably absurd:

"Indeed, Allah [alone] has knowledge of the Hour and sends down the rain and knows what is in the wombs. And no soul perceives what it will earn tomorrow, and no soul perceives in what land it will die. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted."

This verse is referring to knowledge of the future, which no person knows, unless of course Allah (swt) revealed it to that person, as in the case of the prophets.  Ask any person whether they will die tomorrow, and they will say "I don't know".  Even a terminally-ill person, who is on his death-bed, will not know exactly at what moment he will die.  It could be now, or in the next 5 minutes, or in the next 5 days etc. 

If a person had intended to commit suicide at some point, obviously he/she knows that he/she will die if the attempt is successful.  But can they say with 100% certainty that they will certainly succeed in their suicide attempt or even go forward with it?  The answer is no.  Say this person intended to commit suicide tomorrow, will they know for sure today that they will not change their mind tomorrow or if they will be successful if they decide to go ahead with the attempt?  Did Hitler know the day before he committed suicide that he was going to commit suicide the next day?  The answer is no.  No one can know for sure.  That is the point of this verse.  To argue that there is some "error" is therefore just a polemical attempt at finding an error, any error, even when there is none.  You might as well also argue that once the person dies, he/she will "perceive" in the next life that he/she has died and hence there is an "error" in the verse!  Of course, such a thought would be laughable.  Obviously, at the moment of our death (if it is not sudden), we know that we are dying and that our time has come.  That is not a revolutionary idea.

Salaam Alaikum.

I am not disputing the part of the verse that you bolded and underlined, so why you are bringing it up I have no idea. I agree that no one knows what will happen tomorrow, and have never claimed it is mistaken. True, only God knows what will happen tomorrow.

"Indeed, Allah [alone] has knowledge of the Hour and sends down the rain and knows what is in the wombs. And no soul perceives what it will earn tomorrow, and no soul perceives in what land it will die. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted."

I disagree with the part that is in red. See the 5th post in this thread.


A person intending to commit suicide who fails or changes his/her mind (and thanks be to God, most do) does not know when or where they will die, but a person who goes on with the plan and carries it out will have done so with the knowledge where and when... not because they can see the future like God can, but because they planned to do such a tragic thing.

That is besides the point, though, as it is true that no one knows what will happen tomorrow, or even in the next 5 minutes. You are correct, a terminally ill person on his or her death bed does not know whether they will pass away tomorrow or today or in the next few minutes or seconds. That is the matter of "when".

However, knowing the place of one's death is something else. Some people can have such knowledge due to the circumstances they are in. A prisoner doing life who states "I will die in prison" is in the greatest likelihood correct. So is a terminally ill patient who predicts they will die in the hospital. Neither of them can tell you when they will die, but both can tell you where.

To respond to some of your other points,

To argue that there is some "error" is therefore just a polemical attempt at finding an error, any error, even when there is none.  You might as well also argue that once the person dies, he/she will "perceive" in the next life that he/she has died and hence there is an "error" in the verse!  Of course, such a thought would be laughable.  Obviously, at the moment of our death (if it is not sudden), we know that we are dying and that our time has come.  That is not a revolutionary idea.

The part you underlined will not be applicable since the verse says

"Indeed, Allah [alone] has knowledge of the Hour and sends down the rain and knows what is in the wombs. And no soul perceives what it will earn tomorrow, and no soul perceives in what land it will die. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted."

A dead person has died already, this verse is a reference to people who have not died yet.


Again, I am not disputing the part of the verse that states that no one knows what will happen tomorrow. I do not dispute with you that we do not know when we will die unless we are in the process of dying already.

I dispute the statement that no person knows where they will die. Some people are in circumstances that make it impossible for them not to know where- not when- they will die.


Edited by TG12345 - 10 January 2014 at 5:48am
IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 2
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com