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Interfaith Dialogue
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Abu Loren
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Topic: Islamist Terrorists are not Muslims
    Posted: 30 September 2013 at 2:38am
Asalaamu Alaikkum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu
 
A Muslim is a believer who has submitted his whole being to Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala and who enjoins good and forbids evil. Nowhere in the Qur'an nor in the Hadiths does it say to go and kill innocent men, women and children whatever their faith. In fact, a person who kills another soul is like he killed the whole of humanity. The following Hadith clearly states that a person who kills unlawfully has left the fold of Islam.
 
Narrated Anas bin Malik:

Allah's Messenger (PBUH) mentioned the greatest sins or he was asked about the greatest sins. He said, "To join partners in worship with Allah; to kill a soul which Allah has forbidden to kill; and to be undutiful or unkind to one's parents." The Prophet (PBUH) added, "Shall I inform you of the biggest of the great sins? That is the forged statement or the false witness." Shu`ba (the sub-narrator) states that most probably the Prophet said, "the false witness."

Reference

: Sahih al-Bukhari 5977

In-book reference

: Book 78, Hadith 8

USC-MSA web (English) reference

: Vol. 8, Book 73, Hadith 8

 
 
 
 
Now Islamic scholars agree that associating partners to Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala is a major sin that will take one out of the fold of Islam (he will be a kufr or unbeliever) so by definition categorising "killing a soul which Allah has forbidden to kill" also surely comes in the same category. This seems obvious to me.
 
However, Muslims are terrified of labelling somebody especially 'a brother' a kufr because they say they will be accountable for what they say on the Day of Resurrection and if they are wrong about that person then they will be punished for it. But if the evidence is staring at your face then surely you can make that judgement call. The Muslims are terrified of these things. They wait in anticipation for a scholar to give a fatawa, and once that is done then 1.5 billion Muslims will jump on the bandwagon and will then condemn these animals who do these atrocities. They are also terrified of interpreting what is in the Qur'an and the Hadiths even if the statement is so simple a 5 year old could understand.
 
As long as the Muslims Ummah is silent when these terrorists who kill thousands of innocent men, woman and children then it is like they have a license to carry on. It is high time that decent God fearing Muslims spoke up and condemen these atrocities.
 
THEIR SILENCE IS DEAFENING!


Edited by Abu Loren - 30 September 2013 at 2:40am
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TG12345
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 30 September 2013 at 4:35am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Asalaamu Alaikkum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu
 
A Muslim is a believer who has submitted his whole being to Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala and who enjoins good and forbids evil. Nowhere in the Qur'an nor in the Hadiths does it say to go and kill innocent men, women and children whatever their faith. In fact, a person who kills another soul is like he killed the whole of humanity. The following Hadith clearly states that a person who kills unlawfully has left the fold of Islam.
 
Narrated Anas bin Malik:

Allah's Messenger (PBUH) mentioned the greatest sins or he was asked about the greatest sins. He said, "To join partners in worship with Allah; to kill a soul which Allah has forbidden to kill; and to be undutiful or unkind to one's parents." The Prophet (PBUH) added, "Shall I inform you of the biggest of the great sins? That is the forged statement or the false witness." Shu`ba (the sub-narrator) states that most probably the Prophet said, "the false witness."

Reference

: Sahih al-Bukhari 5977

In-book reference

: Book 78, Hadith 8

USC-MSA web (English) reference

: Vol. 8, Book 73, Hadith 8

 
 
 
 
Now Islamic scholars agree that associating partners to Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala is a major sin that will take one out of the fold of Islam (he will be a kufr or unbeliever) so by definition categorising "killing a soul which Allah has forbidden to kill" also surely comes in the same category. This seems obvious to me.
 
However, Muslims are terrified of labelling somebody especially 'a brother' a kufr because they say they will be accountable for what they say on the Day of Resurrection and if they are wrong about that person then they will be punished for it. But if the evidence is staring at your face then surely you can make that judgement call. The Muslims are terrified of these things. They wait in anticipation for a scholar to give a fatawa, and once that is done then 1.5 billion Muslims will jump on the bandwagon and will then condemn these animals who do these atrocities. They are also terrified of interpreting what is in the Qur'an and the Hadiths even if the statement is so simple a 5 year old could understand.
 
As long as the Muslims Ummah is silent when these terrorists who kill thousands of innocent men, woman and children then it is like they have a license to carry on. It is high time that decent God fearing Muslims spoke up and condemen these atrocities.
 
THEIR SILENCE IS DEAFENING!

Salaam Alaikum, and nice to hear from you again, Abu Loren.

Wow, thank you for this powerful post. I post on a forum where many ignorant Christians and other non-Muslims claim that Islam teaches violence and that Muslims excuse it. Would I have your permission to provide a link to this post?

I wanted to say that I agree with you that Islam does not allow terrorist violence against unarmed and innocent men, women and children. Islam allows violence in self-defence, as well as the death penalty against criminals and apostates, which is something I disagree with because Jesus taught love for enemies. However, there is a difference between combat and even capital punishment, and deliberate targeting of civilians. Islam does not allow that.

People calling themselves Muslims who commit terrorism as well as Islamophobes who tarnish your faith fail to understand that.

Take care.

PS I know we weren't on best terms the last time you posted on here, and we will probably get into a lot more heated debates and arguments. I wanted to say though, for the record, that I respect you for writing this.




Edited by TG12345 - 30 September 2013 at 4:50am
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Abu Loren
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 30 September 2013 at 8:10am
Wa Alaikkum
 
There is nothing wrong with heated debates my friend as long as we learn from them and respect each other's beliefs because at the end of the day we will all be judged with justice on the Day of Resurrection.
 
I'm not interested in that link.
 
Come to think of it I should have added on the above post that there are millions of Muslims who do not practice their faith and further millions who are apostate. However, because they have an Arabic/Islamic name people mistake them for a Muslim. A muslim has to do certain things to be a Muslim, many scholars now agree that a person who deliberately misses a pray and do not make up for it then he has left the fold of Islam. Then there are those Muslims who pray only on Friday, on Eid etc.
 
I am sorry but I am not willing to call a hypocrite my brother. In case they have forgotten I will hightlight that "ALL believers are brothers and sisters".
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Quote NABA Replybullet Posted: 30 September 2013 at 9:16am
At tg12345 even islam also taught to love enemies in Surah Al Fusilat ch 41 v 34.
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Quote abuayisha Replybullet Posted: 30 September 2013 at 10:49am
Our terrorist/jihadi coreleligionists base their actions upon an understanding of figh, that you and I disagree with, however to label them non-Muslims is not only an convenient argument, but wrong, and only severs to perpetuate blood letting. It is our duty as Muslims to recognize and familiarize ourselves with the narrative and figh arguments of these misguided individuals and do our best to either expose/report them, or counter their rhetoric with sound Islamic knowledge. It is my belief that today's terrorist began as someone simply seeking to understand political events vis-a-vis Islam, and they gradually become radicalized in the absence of a proper understanding of not only politics, but their religion as well. We should prepare to engage intellectually, whenever we hear their narrative, and not simply dismiss them as non-Muslims.       
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Abu Loren
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 30 September 2013 at 11:27am
Originally posted by abuayisha

Our terrorist/jihadi coreleligionists base their actions upon an understanding of figh, that you and I disagree with, however to label them non-Muslims is not only an convenient argument, but wrong, and only severs to perpetuate blood letting. It is our duty as Muslims to recognize and familiarize ourselves with the narrative and figh arguments of these misguided individuals and do our best to either expose/report them, or counter their rhetoric with sound Islamic knowledge. It is my belief that today's terrorist began as someone simply seeking to understand political events vis-a-vis Islam, and they gradually become radicalized in the absence of a proper understanding of not only politics, but their religion as well. We should prepare to engage intellectually, whenever we hear their narrative, and not simply dismiss them as non-Muslims.       
 
You had to add the word 'Jihadist' to make it legal. If I'm not mistaken Jihad is translated as struggle. So which struglle are they representing?
 
On another forum, a member gave this scenario.
 
A village in Palestine, Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc etc are attacked and the young men who grow up under these circumstances then take up the gun.
 
But by taking up the gun and going to other places in the world and then pointing an AK47 on somebody's face and pulling the trigger or blowing up innocent men, women and children is that justice? If they have geopolitical differences then those must be addressed in a manner where a mutal outcome for both parties are attained. Otherwise, it is blatant terrorism which has no place in any society.
 
Why don't you address this fiqh issue here so we can all have a look at it?
 
By the way, from the Hadith I quoted do you agree that unlawful killing of a soul is tantamount to disbelief?
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abuayisha
 
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Quote abuayisha Replybullet Posted: 30 September 2013 at 1:48pm
Jihadi has become synonymous with terrorist, and for good reason, but my only point was to lump them together because they are often loosely used interchangeably. Most unlawful actions are sins, and generally speaking, murder would be a sin. A major sin.

With respect to your example of;"A village in Palestine..." I would appeal to those Muslims who know the plans of this young man to travel and take up a gun to prevent him from going, but one must have the ability to make a convincing argument.
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TG12345
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 30 September 2013 at 3:21pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Wa Alaikkum
 
There is nothing wrong with heated debates my friend as long as we learn from them and respect each other's beliefs because at the end of the day we will all be judged with justice on the Day of Resurrection.
 
I'm not interested in that link.
 
Come to think of it I should have added on the above post that there are millions of Muslims who do not practice their faith and further millions who are apostate. However, because they have an Arabic/Islamic name people mistake them for a Muslim. A muslim has to do certain things to be a Muslim, many scholars now agree that a person who deliberately misses a pray and do not make up for it then he has left the fold of Islam. Then there are those Muslims who pray only on Friday, on Eid etc.
 
I am sorry but I am not willing to call a hypocrite my brother. In case they have forgotten I will hightlight that "ALL believers are brothers and sisters".

We agree completely, Abu Loren. I also wanted to add I have the same view of people who claim to be Christians, but while saying this they are unrepentantly bombing other countries, supporting the oppression of Palestinians, serving in the army, doing other things that are against the teachings of Jesus. They are not following Him, and they are not Christians. If they do not repent, they will end up in hell.


Edited by TG12345 - 30 September 2013 at 3:21pm
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