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Lachi
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Quote Lachi Replybullet Posted: 26 February 2014 at 1:44pm
Jesus can both have a mortal and a spiritual father. Take the example of Solomon, who was both the son of David and the son of God. In 2 Samuel 7:12- the prophet Nathan delivers the words of God to King David;
“When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men. But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you. And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever.”

David repeats these words to his son Solomon in 1 Chronicles 22:6-10;
Then he called for his son Solomon, and charged him to build a house for the Lord God of Israel. And David said to Solomon: “My son, as for me, it was in my mind to build a house to the name of the Lord my God; but the word of the Lord came to me, saying, ‘You have shed much blood and have made great wars; you shall not build a house for My name, because you have shed much blood on the earth in My sight. Behold, a son shall be born to you, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies all around. His name shall be Solomon, for I will give peace and quietness to Israel in his days. He shall build a house for My name, and he shall be My son, and I will be his Father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever.’

Solomon was therefore the son of David, but also the son of God.


A man can also be given two mortal fathers. Throughout the history books of Kings and Chronicles in the Bible the Kings of Judah are called 'son of David' regardless of who their immediate father was.
For example 2 Kings 16:1-2
In the seventeenth year of Pekah the son of Remaliah, Ahaz the son of Jotham, king of Judah, began to reign. Ahaz was twenty years old when he became king, and he reigned sixteen years in Jerusalem; and he did not do what was right in the sight of the Lord his God, as his father David had done.
And again in 2 Kings 18:1-3;
Now it came to pass in the third year of Hoshea the son of Elah, king of Israel, that Hezekiah the son of Ahaz, king of Judah, began to reign. He was twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned twenty-nine years in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Abia the daughter of Zechariah. And he did what was right in the sight of the Lord, according to all that his father David had done.

Thus Jesus can have two mortal fathers - David & Joseph, and also be the son of God.

Edited by Lachi - 26 February 2014 at 1:46pm
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Quote Lachi Replybullet Posted: 26 February 2014 at 2:31pm
Was the relationship between Tamar and Judah incestuous? Tamar according to Genesis Chapter 38 had not consummated her marriages, and she was the widow of Judah's sons, not their wife.

The verse in Deuteronomy 23:2 cannot be applied to the descendants of Perez and Zerah. The ten generations from them included Nahshon, prince of the tribe of Judah, who represented his tribe in the congregation of Israel as commanded by God to Moses;
Numbers 1:1-16
And the Lord spake unto Moses in the wilderness of Sinai, in the tabernacle of the congregation, on the first day of the second month, in the second year after they were come out of the land of Egypt, saying, Take ye the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, after their families, by the house of their fathers, with the number of their names, every male by their polls; From twenty years old and upward, all that are able to go forth to war in Israel: thou and Aaron shall number them by their armies. And with you there shall be a man of every tribe; every one head of the house of his fathers. And these are the names of the men that shall stand with you: of the tribe of Reuben; Elizur the son of Shedeur. Of Simeon; Shelumiel the son of Zurishaddai. Of Judah; Nahshon the son of Amminadab. Of Issachar; Nethaneel the son of Zuar. Of Zebulun; Eliab the son of Helon. Of the children of Joseph: of Ephraim; Elishama the son of Ammihud: of Manasseh; Gamaliel the son of Pedahzur. Of Benjamin; Abidan the son of Gideoni. Of Dan; Ahiezer the son of Ammishaddai. Of Asher; Pagiel the son of Ocran. Of Gad; Eliasaph the son of Deuel. Of Naphtali; Ahira the son of Enan. These were the renowned of the congregation, princes of the tribes of their fathers, heads of thousands in Israel.

It also included King David, who was raised up and anointed by God.

Edited by Lachi - 26 February 2014 at 2:33pm
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iec786
 
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Quote iec786 Replybullet Posted: 26 February 2014 at 9:42pm
Originally posted by Lachi

Jesus can both have a mortal and a spiritual father. Take the example of Solomon, who was both the son of David and the son of God. In 2 Samuel 7:12- the prophet Nathan delivers the words of God to King David;
“When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men. But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you. And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever.”

David repeats these words to his son Solomon in 1 Chronicles 22:6-10;
Then he called for his son Solomon, and charged him to build a house for the Lord God of Israel. And David said to Solomon: “My son, as for me, it was in my mind to build a house to the name of the Lord my God; but the word of the Lord came to me, saying, ‘You have shed much blood and have made great wars; you shall not build a house for My name, because you have shed much blood on the earth in My sight. Behold, a son shall be born to you, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies all around. His name shall be Solomon, for I will give peace and quietness to Israel in his days. He shall build a house for My name, and he shall be My son, and I will be his Father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever.’

Solomon was therefore the son of David, but also the son of God.


A man can also be given two mortal fathers. Throughout the history books of Kings and Chronicles in the Bible the Kings of Judah are called 'son of David' regardless of who their immediate father was.
For example 2 Kings 16:1-2
In the seventeenth year of Pekah the son of Remaliah, Ahaz the son of Jotham, king of Judah, began to reign. Ahaz was twenty years old when he became king, and he reigned sixteen years in Jerusalem; and he did not do what was right in the sight of the Lord his God, as his father David had done.
And again in 2 Kings 18:1-3;
Now it came to pass in the third year of Hoshea the son of Elah, king of Israel, that Hezekiah the son of Ahaz, king of Judah, began to reign. He was twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned twenty-nine years in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Abia the daughter of Zechariah. And he did what was right in the sight of the Lord, according to all that his father David had done.

Thus Jesus can have two mortal fathers - David & Joseph, and also be the son of God.




Did Jesus have a father????? or was he born without a father????was his mother a virgin or was he born of intercourse??? that should answer your question.
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Quote iec786 Replybullet Posted: 26 February 2014 at 9:52pm
Originally posted by Lachi

Was the relationship between Tamar and Judah incestuous? Tamar according to Genesis Chapter 38 had not consummated her marriages, and she was the widow of Judah's sons, not their wife.

The verse in Deuteronomy 23:2 cannot be applied to the descendants of Perez and Zerah. The ten generations from them included Nahshon, prince of the tribe of Judah, who represented his tribe in the congregation of Israel as commanded by God to Moses;
Numbers 1:1-16
And the Lord spake unto Moses in the wilderness of Sinai, in the tabernacle of the congregation, on the first day of the second month, in the second year after they were come out of the land of Egypt, saying, Take ye the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, after their families, by the house of their fathers, with the number of their names, every male by their polls; From twenty years old and upward, all that are able to go forth to war in Israel: thou and Aaron shall number them by their armies. And with you there shall be a man of every tribe; every one head of the house of his fathers. And these are the names of the men that shall stand with you: of the tribe of Reuben; Elizur the son of Shedeur. Of Simeon; Shelumiel the son of Zurishaddai. Of Judah; Nahshon the son of Amminadab. Of Issachar; Nethaneel the son of Zuar. Of Zebulun; Eliab the son of Helon. Of the children of Joseph: of Ephraim; Elishama the son of Ammihud: of Manasseh; Gamaliel the son of Pedahzur. Of Benjamin; Abidan the son of Gideoni. Of Dan; Ahiezer the son of Ammishaddai. Of Asher; Pagiel the son of Ocran. Of Gad; Eliasaph the son of Deuel. Of Naphtali; Ahira the son of Enan. These were the renowned of the congregation, princes of the tribes of their fathers, heads of thousands in Israel.

It also included King David, who was raised up and anointed by God.



You see you are a gentile you do not know of Jewish folk law.If the old brother dies then the next brother takes his wife and goes in unto her his brothers wife.Then when the second brother dies then the third brother takes his wife and goes into her meaning he has sexual intercourse with her.So if one brother dies the next brother would take the first brothers wife and so on.Who says so???? Your Bible that you hold in your hand says so.
Genesis 38 (New International Version)
6 Judah got a wife for Er, his firstborn, and her name was Tamar. 7 But Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so the Lord put him to death.

8 Then Judah said to Onan, “Sleep with your brother’s wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to raise up offspring for your brother.” 9 But Onan knew that the child would not be his; so whenever he slept with his brother’s wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from providing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so the Lord put him to death also.

11 Judah then said to his daughter-in-law Tamar, “Live as a widow in your father’s household until my son Shelah grows up.” For he thought, “He may die too, just like his brothers.” So Tamar went to live in her father’s household.


12 After a long time Judah’s wife, the daughter of Shua, died. When Judah had recovered from his grief, he went up to Timnah, to the men who were shearing his sheep, and his friend Hirah the Adullamite went with him.

13 When Tamar was told, “Your father-in-law is on his way to Timnah to shear his sheep,” 14 she took off her widow’s clothes, covered herself with a veil to disguise herself, and then sat down at the entrance to Enaim, which is on the road to Timnah. For she saw that, though Shelah had now grown up, she had not been given to him as his wife.

15 When Judah saw her, he thought she was a prostitute, for she had covered her face. 16 Not realizing that she was his daughter-in-law, he went over to her by the roadside and said, “Come now, let me sleep with you.”

“And what will you give me to sleep with you?” she asked.

17 “I’ll send you a young goat from my flock,” he said.

“Will you give me something as a pledge until you send it?” she asked.

18 He said, “What pledge should I give you?”

“Your seal and its cord, and the staff in your hand,” she answered. So he gave them to her and slept with her, and she became pregnant by him. 19 After she left, she took off her veil and put on her widow’s clothes again.

20 Meanwhile Judah sent the young goat by his friend the Adullamite in order to get his pledge back from the woman, but he did not find her. 21 He asked the men who lived there, “Where is the shrine prostitute who was beside the road at Enaim?”

“There hasn’t been any shrine prostitute here,” they said.

22 So he went back to Judah and said, “I didn’t find her. Besides, the men who lived there said, ‘There hasn’t been any shrine prostitute here.’”

23 Then Judah said, “Let her keep what she has, or we will become a laughingstock. After all, I did send her this young goat, but you didn’t find her.”

24 About three months later Judah was told, “Your daughter-in-law Tamar is guilty of prostitution, and as a result she is now pregnant.”

Judah said, “Bring her out and have her burned to death!”

25 As she was being brought out, she sent a message to her father-in-law. “I am pregnant by the man who owns these,” she said. And she added, “See if you recognize whose seal and cord and staff these are.”

26 Judah recognized them and said, “She is more righteous than I, since I wouldn’t give her to my son Shelah.” And he did not sleep with her again.

27 When the time came for her to give birth, there were twin boys in her womb. 28 As she was giving birth, one of them put out his hand; so the midwife took a scarlet thread and tied it on his wrist and said, “This one came out first.” 29 But when he drew back his hand, his brother came out, and she said, “So this is how you have broken out!” And he was named Perez.[a> 30 Then his brother, who had the scarlet thread on his wrist, came out. And he was named Zerah.


This my boy is called incest.

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Quote Lachi Replybullet Posted: 20 March 2014 at 8:29pm
iec786 please note these verses that you quote;

Genesis 38 (New International Version)

11 Judah then said to his daughter-in-law Tamar, “Live as a widow in your father’s household until my son Shelah grows up.” For he thought, “He may die too, just like his brothers.” So Tamar went to live in her father’s household.

14 she [Tamar] took off her widow’s clothes, covered herself with a veil to disguise herself, and then sat down at the entrance to Enaim, which is on the road to Timnah. For she saw that, though Shelah had now grown up, she had not been given to him as his wife. 15 When Judah saw her, he thought she was a prostitute, for she had covered her face.

24 About three months later Judah was told, “Your daughter-in-law Tamar is guilty of prostitution, and as a result she is now pregnant.” Judah said, “Bring her out and have her burned to death!” As she was being brought out, she sent a message to her father-in-law. “I am pregnant by the man who owns these,” she said. And she added, “See if you recognize whose seal and cord and staff these are.” 26 Judah recognized them and said, “She is more righteous than I, since I wouldn’t give her to my son Shelah.” And he did not sleep with her again.

Tamar is not the wife of Judah's sons, she is a widow and not even living in Judah's household. She is not the wife of Shelah, despite what the custom might have been. Nowhere in any Law of God does it prohibit a woman having sex with her male-in-laws after her husband has died. A wife is prohibited, but not a widow.
Hence it is not lawful for a man to sleep with his brother's wife:
Leviticus 18:16 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your brother's wife; it is your brother's nakedness. & Leviticus 20:21 If a man takes his brother's wife, it is impurity. He has uncovered his brother's nakedness; they shall be childless.
But a man is allowed to sleep with his brother's widow:
Deuteronomy 25:5 “If brothers dwell together, and one of them dies and has no son, the wife of the dead man shall not be married outside the family to a stranger. Her husband's brother shall go in to her and take her as his wife and perform the duty of a husband's brother to her.

Tamar was therefore not committing incest, because she was a widow and not married to any of Judah's sons.


However the argument from Mosaic Law is pointless when attached to those who lived before the Mosaic Law was declared by God.

Abraham married his father's daughter;
Genesis 20:12 Besides, she [Sarai] is indeed my [Abram's] sister, the daughter of my father though not the daughter of my mother, and she became my wife.
PROHIBITED - Leviticus 18:9, You shall not uncover the nakedness of your sister, your father's daughter or your mother's daughter, whether brought up in the family or in another home.

Jacob married two sisters;
Genesis 29: 21-30 Then Jacob said to Laban, “Give me my wife that I may go in to her, for my time is completed.” So Laban gathered together all the people of the place and made a feast. But in the evening he took his daughter Leah and brought her to Jacob, and he went in to her. Laban gave his female servant Zilpah to his daughter Leah to be her servant. And in the morning, behold, it was Leah! And Jacob said to Laban, “What is this you have done to me? Did I not serve with you for Rachel? Why then have you deceived me?” Laban said, “It is not so done in our country, to give the younger before the firstborn. Complete the week of this one, and we will give you the other also in return for serving me another seven years.” Jacob did so, and completed her week. Then Laban gave him his daughter Rachel to be his wife. Laban gave his female servant Bilhah to his daughter Rachel to be her servant. So Jacob went in to Rachel also, and he loved Rachel more than Leah, and served Laban for another seven years.
PROHIBITED - Leviticus 18:18 And you shall not take a woman as a rival wife to her sister, uncovering her nakedness while her sister is still alive.

Amram married his father's sister;
Exodus 6:20 Amram took as his wife Jochebed his father's sister, and she bore him Aaron and Moses, the years of the life of Amram being 137 years.
PROHIBITED - Leviticus 18:12, You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father's sister; she is your father's relative.

All these relationships are prohibited under Mosaic Law, yet these couples were not punished. In fact they were honoured with blessed offspring (Isaac, Joseph, Moses, etc), and their descendants to the tenth generation (which included Moses and Aaron) were not prohibited from the congregation of the Lord. The same goes for Judah and Tamar.



Edited by Lachi - 20 March 2014 at 8:57pm
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Quote Lachi Replybullet Posted: 20 March 2014 at 8:46pm
Originally posted by iec786

Did Jesus have a father????? or was he born without a father????was his mother a virgin or was he born of intercourse??? that should answer your question.


My post was attempting to show how Jesus, like Solomon and the Kings of Israel, could be given multiple fathers in the language of Scripture.

According to Christian belief Jesus was born from a virgin through the actions of the Holy Spirit. He was the Son of God (by spirit), a son of Joseph (by law) and the son of David (by descent).

Modern rationality would dispense with the son of a virgin notion, but can still maintain that he was the Son of God (as was Solomon) and be the son of Joseph (by blood), and son of David (by descent - as were the kings of Israel).


Edited by Lachi - 20 March 2014 at 8:46pm
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Quote Al Saadiqeen21 Replybullet Posted: 22 March 2014 at 6:49am
The real question here should be , How did Mary have a male child without a Man , Without all the spook-ism !!!
One doesn't go to school let His / her's mind to die , They go to school so that their mind will come alive .

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Quote Lachi Replybullet Posted: 23 March 2014 at 4:41pm
Originally posted by Al Saadiqeen21

The real question here should be , How did Mary have a male child without a Man , Without all the spook-ism !!!


Christianity and Islam both believe that spook-ism is part of the deal.
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