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TG12345
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 18 August 2013 at 3:17pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings TG,

Hello, Caringheart! Long time no talk.
Originally posted by Caringheart


On another forum someone made the statement:
"How about this, go find another "error or contradiction in the quran". If you think there is one, there must be more than, its only rational. If one makes a simple mistake, then for sure there are others."
I shared the link to this discussion.  This is their refutation.  What response you would give?
Here is the supposed 'contradiction' ?

The buildings that Muhammad and his men came across were not built by the Thamud before the time of Moses, but by the Nabateans who built it between the 1st century BC and 1st century AD. *

The Quran's claim that the buildings carved out of rock were made by the Thamud during the time of Salih is false

They were also tombs, not houses as Muhammad and the author of the Quran evidently believed

LOL these are my words, right? And the following below is the refutation? I will gladly address it.

Originally posted by Caringheart


The Quran, in 7:74 doesn't say they were built by Thamud, the ayat mentions the people of 'Ad which were a different group. The OP uses the name Nabateans, which isn't in the Quran and the Quran does not give a specific time for when they lived.  


7:73, 74

To the Thamud people (We sent) Salih, one of their own brethren: He said: "O my people! worship Allah: ye have no other god but Him. Now hath come unto you a clear (Sign) from your Lord! This she-camel of Allah is a Sign unto you: So leave her to graze in Allah's earth, and let her come to no harm, or ye shall be seized with a grievous punishment.

"And remember how He made you inheritors after the 'Ad people and gave you habitations in the land: ye build for yourselves palaces and castles in (open) plains, and care out homes in the mountains; so bring to remembrance the benefits (ye have received) from Allah, and refrain from evil and mischief on the earth."


In 7:74, Salih is addressing the Thamud, telling them how God made them the inheritors after the Ad people and gave them habitations in the land, and "you" (a reference to the Thamud) build for themselves castles and palaces and carve out homes in the mountains. Tafsirs Ibn Abbas, Al Jalalayn and Ibn Qathir all state 7:74 applies to the Thamud.

I won't copy and paste them, but they (and the tafsirs of all the verses) can be found on www.altafsir.com and www.qtafsir.com

Originally posted by Caringheart


So 7:74 is about 'Ad, not Thamud. It says 'Ad made houses on the side of mountains.

The verse makes it clear that the Thamud carved the homes out of rock. The tafsirs do also.
Originally posted by Caringheart


The Quran does mention Thamud doing a similar activity in 89:9
 
This ayat simply says that Thamud carved rocks in the valley. This verse doesn't use the term 'buyut', houses,

It doesn't, but 7:74 does. Smile

Originally posted by Caringheart


and it also doesn't give a time. So the OPs supposition that the Quran says that Thamud built houses out of rock and that these were the same structures of the Nabateans is wrong.  First, the Quran does not say Thamud built 'houses' out of rock, that was another group, the 'Ad.

7:74 states very clearly that the Thamud were the ones who built the homes out of rock.
Also, so does

15:80-84

And certainly did the companions of Thamud deny the messengers.
And We gave them Our signs, but from them they were turning away.
And they used to carve from the mountains, houses, feeling secure.
But the shriek seized them at early morning.
So nothing availed them [from] what they used to earn.

If you read any tafsir, you will notice that this was also meant as a reference to the Thamud.

So we have 2 verses where it is clearly stated that the Thamud carved their houses out of mountains.
Originally posted by Caringheart


 Secondly, it doesn't give a time when Thamud 'carved rocks in the Valley'.

According to the verses we have examined, the Thamud carved their homes out of mountains before Salih warned them and they killed the She-Camel, and were as a result annihilated.

Now, let's see when Salih lived. Although the Quran does not give us specific dates (neither does the Bible), it does tell us some important chronological information. We know that according to the Quran, there was a prophet called Shuaib, who was sent to the Midianites. His story can be found in 11:84-95. His people were disobeying God, and he warned them by saying:

11:89

And O my people, let not [your] dissension from me cause you to be struck by that similar to what struck the people of Noah or the people of Hud or the people of Salih. And the people of Lot are not from you far away.

So we know that Shuaib lived after the destruction of the Thamud, since he referred to their punishment in the past tense.

Chapter 11 in the Quran provides a chronological list of some of the prophets between Noah and Moses.
11:25-50 tells the story of Noah and his people. 11:51-60 tells the story of Hud and the Ad. 11:61-68 tells the story of Salih and the Thamud. 11:69-83 tells the story of Abraham and Lot and their people. 11:84-95 tells the story of Shuayb and the Midianites. 11:96-99 tells the story of Moses and the Pharaoh.

9:70 also provides a chronological list of some of the peoples who didn't listen to their prophets.

9:70

Hath not the story reached them of those before them?- the People of Noah, and 'Ad, and Thamud; the People of Abraham, the men of Midian, and the cities overthrown. To them came their messengers with clear signs. It is not Allah Who wrongs them, but they wrong their own souls.

Notice that they are listed in the same order as in chapter 11. First the people of Noah, then the Ad, then the Thamud, then the people of Abraham, then the Midianites.

Another example of that we can see below:

22:42-44

If they treat thy (mission) as false, so did the peoples before them (with their prophets),- the People of Noah, and 'Ad and Thamud
Those of Abraham and Lut;
And the Companions of the Madyan People; and Moses was rejected (in the same way). But I granted respite to the Unbelievers, and (only) after that did I punish them: but how (terrible) was my rejection (of them)!


Notice the order the events and prophets are listed in.

If you were to read Lives of the Prophets by Ibn Qathir, you will see that the prophets are listed in chronological order, and that Shuayb is before Moses, and after Salih and Hud.
http://www.kalamullah.com/Books/Stories%20Of%20The%20Prophets%20By%20Ibn%20Kathir.pdf

In reference to the book from a Muslim publisher:

Description from the publisher:

In this book, the stories of the prophets have been compiled from 'Al-Bidayah wan-Nihayah' (The Beginning and the End) which is a great work of the famous Muslim exegete and historian Ibn Kathir and has a prominent place in the Islamic literature. The stories of the prophets and all the events in their lives have been supported by the Qur'anic Verses and the Sunnah (traditions) of the Prophet (S). Wherever it was necessary, other sources have also been reported for the sake of historical accounts, but on such places a comparative study has been made to prove the authenticity of the sources. Ibn Kathir has reproduced the views and interpretations of all the great exegetes of the Qur'an of his time. The systemic narratives of the Stories of the Prophets have been written in chronological order which renders a historical style to the book.

 http://www.islamicbookstore.com/b2632.html

So it is clear that according to the Quran, as well as commentators like Ibn Qathir, the Thamud lived before Moses.

Other Muslim sites that provide a chronological order of the prophets also list Moses as having lived after Shuaib.
http://www.iqra.net/articles/muslims/prophets.php

Finally, if Ibn Qathir's book and the other verses are not enough, here is definite proof that the Thamud lived before Moses.

40:27-35

Musa (Moses) said: "Verily I seek refuge in my Lord and your Lord from every arrogant who believes not in the Day of Reckoning!
And a believing man of Fir'aun's (Pharaoh) family, who hid his faith said: "Would you kill a man because he says: My Lord is Allah, and he has come to you with clear signs (proofs) from your Lord? And if he is a liar, upon him will be (the sin of) his lie; but if he is telling the truth, then some of that (calamity) wherewith he threatens you will befall on you." Verily, Allah guides not one who is a Musrif (a polytheist, or a murderer who shed blood without a right, or those who commit great sins, oppressor, transgressor), a liar!
"O my people! Yours is the kingdom today, you being dominant in the land. But who will save us from the Torment of Allah, should it befall us?" Fir'aun (Pharaoh) said: "I show you only that which I see (correct), and I guide you only to the path of right policy!"
And he who believed said: "O my people! Verily, I fear for you a fate like that day (of disaster) of the Confederates (of old)!
"Like the fate of the people of Nuh (Noah), and 'Ad, and Thamud and those who came after them. And Allah wills no injustice for (His) slaves.
"And, O my people! Verily, I fear for you the Day when there will be mutual calling (between the people of Hell and of Paradise)."
A Day when you will turn your backs and flee having no protector from Allah. And whomsoever Allah sends astray, for him there is no guide.
And indeed Yusuf (Joseph) did come to you, in times gone by, with clear signs, but you ceased not to doubt in that which he did bring to you: till when he died you said: "No Messenger will Allah send after him." Thus Allah leaves astray him who is a Musrif (a polytheist, an oppressor, a criminal, sinner who commit great sins) and a Murtab (one who doubts Allah's Warning and His Oneness).
Those who dispute about the Ayat (proofs, evidence, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, without any authority that has come to them, it is greatly hateful and disgusting to Allah and to those who believe. Thus does Allah seal up the heart of every arrogant, tyrant. (So they cannot guide themselves to the Right Path).

This man gave a speech to Pharaoh, and he was describing the Thamud and what happened to them.

We know that Moses lives around 1200 BC. This means that the Thamud would have lived before then. So we have a chronological order in place. According to the Quran, the Thamud lived before Moses.

Originally posted by Caringheart


 Third, the Quran doesn't mention the term 'Nabateans', so also his supposition that there is a contradiction in terms of time (1000 years?) is also false. 

I didn't say there was a contradiction, I said there is a historical error.

The Quran doesn't mention the term "Nabataeans", but it mistakenly attributes the buildings built by them to the Thamud. As I have pointed out already, the buildings at Al Hijr were built by the Nabateans, who build them during the first century AD and a few decades before this. The events described in the Quran took place at least a milennium before this.


Ironically, although the Quran is extremely clear that the homes were built by the Thamud, if the person wants to argue they were built by the Ad, that would be even worse, since they lived before Salih!

Originally posted by Caringheart


Thanks,
Caringheart

Anytime, sister. Smile

Could you please send me a link to this forum and discussion? Thanks so much!

God bless you.
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Quote NABA Replybullet Posted: 19 August 2013 at 7:08am
walecum As Salaam,prophet Muhammad(pbuh) said do not enter the dwelling places of those on whom wrath of Allah has fallen upon,see the dwelling place not the scriptures,in other words prophet said don't enter the land,structures are the secondary things.
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 19 August 2013 at 7:46am
Originally posted by NABA

walecum As Salaam,prophet Muhammad(pbuh) said do not enter the dwelling places of those on whom wrath of Allah has fallen upon,see the dwelling place not the scriptures,in other words prophet said don't enter the land,structures are the secondary things.

Wa Alaikum Salaam to you also, NABA.

The word I read in the hadiths on www.searchtruth.com are "habitations". Muhammad used them when he was talking about "the stony abodes of the Thamud".

(5) Ibn Shihab reported, and he had been talking about the stony abodes of thamud, and he said: Salim b. 'Abdullah reported that 'Abdullah b. Umar said: We were passing along with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) through the habitations of Hijr, and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Do not enter but weepingly the habitations of these persons who committed tyranny among themselves, lest the same calamity should fall upon you as it fell upon them. He then urged his mount to proceed quickly and pass through that valley hurriedly.  (Book #042, Hadith #7104)


http://searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=thamud&translator=2&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all



hab·i·ta·tion

[hab-i-tey-shuhn] Show IPA
noun
1.
a place of residence; dwelling; abode.
2.
the act of inhabiting; occupancy by inhabitants.
3.
a colony or settlement; community: Each of the scattered habitations consisted of a small number of huts.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/habitation



res·i·dence

[rez-i-duhns] Show IPA
noun
1.
the place, especially the house, in which a person lives or resides; dwelling place; home: Their residence is in New York City.
2.
a structure serving as a dwelling or home, especially one of large proportion and superior quality: They have a summer residence in Connecticut.
3.
the act or fact of residing: during his residence in Spain.
4.
the act of living or staying in a specified place while performing official duties, carrying on studies or research, awaiting a divorce, etc.
5.
the time during which a person resides in a place: a residence there of five years.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/residence?s=t

If you prefer to use the word "dwelling", why not.

dwell·ing

[dwel-ing] Show IPA
noun
a building or place of shelter to live in; place of residence; abode; home.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dwelling?s=t


So Muhammad was referring to the "houses" built by the Thamud... which were in fact actually tombs that were built by the Nabataeans.
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Quote NABA Replybullet Posted: 20 August 2013 at 7:24am
can U give me the link of those archaeologists who said that the buildings were made by nabaeteans please??
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 20 August 2013 at 7:59am
Originally posted by NABA

can U give me the link of those archaeologists who said that the buildings were made by nabaeteans please??


Of course, my friend.

http://www.islamicurbanheritage.org.sa/english/MadanSaleh.aspx

http://saudi-archaeology.com/sites/madain-saleh/

http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1293



Salaam.
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Quote NABA Replybullet Posted: 21 August 2013 at 7:30am
I visited the site Saudi archaeology.com.u never mentioned about dedanites and lythianites.it is mentioned there,Nabaeteans chose hegra before them the predesseccors were dedanites and lythanites.Quran refers to thamudic people earlier than them.they have not counted any error from Quran,no Muslim is a Muslim if he doesn't believe in what Allah says.
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 21 August 2013 at 9:36am
Originally posted by NABA

I visited the site Saudi archaeology.com.u never mentioned about dedanites and lythianites.it is mentioned there,Nabaeteans chose hegra before them the predesseccors were dedanites and lythanites.Quran refers to thamudic people earlier than them.they have not counted any error from Quran,no Muslim is a Muslim if he doesn't believe in what Allah says.

Salaam Alaikum. There were people who lived in al Hijr before the Nabataeans. They included the Thamud, Lihyanites and Dedanites.

However, the Nabataeans were the ones who carved the buildings at al Hijr.

Mada’in Saleh, not far from al-Ula (22 km), was known as al-Hijr, or Hegra, by the Nabataean people who carved its magnificent tombs into the golden Quweira sandstone outcrops. The delicate details on the entrance portals and the smooth surfaces of its 111 tomb façades reflect the great skills of the masons of their time. The splendor of the natural setting here must have reminded the Nabataeans of their capital, Petra, hewn into the rosey sandstone cliffs to the north in modern-day Jordan. It is no wonder that they chose this very spot to build their second city, Hegra. Based on the many dated tomb inscriptions, Hegra thrived between 1 BCE -74 CE.

http://saudi-archaeology.com/sites/madain-saleh/

The Quran is correct in its statement that the Thamud lived at Al Hijr. It is mistaken when it claims that the Thamud carved buildings out of rock. They didn't. The Nabataeans did.


Edited by TG12345 - 21 August 2013 at 9:37am
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Quote NABA Replybullet Posted: 22 August 2013 at 7:16am
but nobody in that article contraindicate Qur'an,its ur assumption,definitely yes people say that structures might b created by nabaeteans but they are not going against Qur'an.
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