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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: Error in Quran and hadiths about Thamud Post Reply Post New Topic
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NABA
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Quote NABA Replybullet Posted: 29 October 2013 at 11:09pm
At caring heart u quote me any verse of Quran which is against humanity??? If satan wud have written it then he wud have definitely ordered us to do wrong, u know that today poor man is getting poorer and rich is getting powerful, y?? It is because of interest based economy means riba Allah says in ch 2 v 278-279 give up the demands of riba otherwise u r waging a war against Allah and prophet. If Satan wud have written he cud have ordered to do riba.
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 30 October 2013 at 10:27am
Originally posted by NABA

At caring heart u quote me any verse of Quran which is against humanity??? If satan wud have written it then he wud have definitely ordered us to do wrong, u know that today poor man is getting poorer and rich is getting powerful, y?? It is because of interest based economy means riba Allah says in ch 2 v 278-279 give up the demands of riba otherwise u r waging a war against Allah and prophet. If Satan wud have written he cud have ordered to do riba.


Greetings NABA,

Satan is much too sly, cunning, and deceptive to do anything so obvious... remember he appears as an angel of light.

"As 'the deceiver of the whole world' (Rev. 12:9), his primary method is that of deception -- about himself, his purpose, his activities, his coming defeat.... He snatches away the Word of God sown in the hearts of the unsaved (Matt. 13 :19), ... blinds the minds of men to the Gospel (II Cor. 4:3-4), and induces them to accept his lie (II Thess. 2:9-10). Often he transforms himself into 'an angel of light' by presenting his apostles of falsehood as messengers of truth (II Cor. 11: 13-15)." -- Pictorial Bible Dictionary, Zondervan 1971, under satan.

Salaam and blessings to you,
Caringheart
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 30 October 2013 at 2:22pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Regarding earlier comments....Satan is the great deceiver...the one who will present himself as something he is not...misleading by seeming to present truth, when in actuality denying it.Salaam.



The truth is not the Trinity but that there is ONE God. It is amazing how many billions of Christians he has deceived into believing that Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) was god incarnate, son of god etc.

Also Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) brought people out of the darkness and into the light. The Arabs were killing their own daughters for crying out loud, and killing each other for fun. The devil would have let them carry on not stop it.

Sahih International
It is He who has sent among the unlettered a Messenger from themselves reciting to them His verses and purifying them and teaching them the Book and wisdom - although they were before in clear error -
62:2

Islam abrogates all other religion as it is the clear instructions for mankind from God.

Sahih International
It is He who sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion, although those who associate others with Allah dislike it.
61:9

The Jews were meant to invite the rest of mankind to the religion of Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala but they excluded them and said to themselves that they were/are the 'chosen people'.

Sahih International
Say, "O you who are Jews, if you claim that you are allies of Allah , excluding the [other] people, then wish for death, if you should be truthful."
62:6

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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 31 October 2013 at 12:35pm
Sahih International
You are not, [O Muhammad], by the favor of your Lord, a madman. And indeed, for you is a reward uninterrupted. And indeed, you are of a great moral character. So you will see and they will see. Which of you is the afflicted [by a devil]. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has gone astray from His way, and He is most knowing of the [rightly] guided. Then do not obey the deniers.  And do not obey every worthless habitual swearer. [And] scorner, going about with malicious gossip - A preventer of good, transgressing and sinful, Cruel, moreover, and an illegitimate pretender. Because he is a possessor of wealth and children, When Our verses are recited to him, he says, "Legends of the former peoples." We will brand him upon the snout.
68:2-16
Sahih International
Indeed, for the righteous with their Lord are the Gardens of Pleasure. Then will We treat the Muslims like the criminals? What is [the matter] with you? How do you judge? Or do you have a scripture in which you learn - That indeed for you is whatever you choose? Or do you have oaths [binding] upon Us, extending until the Day of Resurrection, that indeed for you is whatever you judge? Ask them which of them, for that [claim], is responsible.
68:35-40
 
Sahih International
So leave Me, [O Muhammad], with [the matter of] whoever denies the Qur'an. We will progressively lead them [to punishment] from where they do not know. And I will give them time. Indeed, My plan is firm. Or do you ask of them a payment, so they are by debt burdened down? Or have they [knowledge of] the unseen, so they write [it] down?


Edited by Abu Loren - 31 October 2013 at 12:37pm
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 31 October 2013 at 1:15pm

Sahih International
It is He who has sent among the unlettered a Messenger from themselves reciting to them His verses and purifying them and teaching them the Book and wisdom - although they were before in clear error -
62:2

Islam abrogates all other religion as it is the clear instructions for mankind from God.

Sahih International
It is He who sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion, although those who associate others with Allah dislike it.
61:9

The Jews were meant to invite the rest of mankind to the religion of Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala but they excluded them and said to themselves that they were/are the 'chosen people'.

Sahih International
Say, "O you who are Jews, if you claim that you are allies of Allah , excluding the [other] people, then wish for death, if you should be truthful."
62:6


Greetings Abu Loren,

Surah's 61 and 62 were some of the last to be recited, and they are of the Medina verses, which for me have the least amount of credibility.

Salaam,
Caringheart


Edited by Caringheart - 31 October 2013 at 1:15pm
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 01 November 2013 at 2:07am
Originally posted by Caringheart


Greetings Abu Loren,Surah's 61 and 62 were some of the last to be recited, and they are of the Medina verses, which for me have the least amount of credibility.Salaam,Caringheart


Greetings Caringheart

When you and the disbelievers of the Qur'an are lead to hell fire in chains the gatekeeper of hell Malik will ask you "has no warner come to you?".

What will your answer be?
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 01 November 2013 at 11:52pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren


Greetings Caringheart

When you and the disbelievers of the Qur'an are lead to hell fire in chains the gatekeeper of hell Malik will ask you "has no warner come to you?".

What will your answer be?

Greetings Abu Loren,

My answer will always be... "I believe in Yahshua"... whoever asks.

Salaam and blessings to you,
you had been away for awhile,
I hope you are doing well.

Caringheart
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
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TG12345
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 02 November 2013 at 9:22am
Originally posted by TG12345


We actually do know when the area was occupied by the Nabataeans, and when it was occupied by the people prior to them (Lihyanites, Thamud, others). We also know who carved buildings out of rock at Al Hijr. It was the Nabataeans. The Thamud did not. Muslim as well as non-Muslim archaeologists and scholars have been able to date the structures at Al Hijr, and to discover who lived there and when.Their findings clearly show that the Quran's account is false. So you choose to ignore them.

Salaam Alaikum, and my apologies for not responding sooner.
Originally posted by Abu Loren


Your logic, reasoning and intellect was flawed from the beginning when you started this thread. First of all, the people of Thamud are unkown outside of the Qur'an and Islam so this would not be a subject matter for study outside of Islam.


The oldest sources known referring to Thamud, are the victory annals of the Babylonian King, Sargon II (8th Century BC), who defeated these people in a campaign in northern Arabia. The Greeks also refer to this people as "Tamudaei", i.e. "Thamud", in the writings of Aristo, Ptolemy, and Pliny.2 Before the Prophet Muhammad, approximately between 400-600 AD, they totally disappeared.

http://perishednations.com/thamud2.html#2_2

Mention of the Thamud can be found in the writings of Sargon II, Pliny, Ptolemy and Aristo.

You can label my intellect, logic and reasoning flawed if you want, but your assertion that there is no mention of the Thamud outside of the Quran and Islam is wrong, pure and simple.

Originally posted by Abu Loren


 Secondly, we are told by Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala that the people were completely destroyed, there were no traces of them left except the buildings they built.

A) The quotes from ancient writers listed above show that the Thamud were in existence long after they were all allegedly destroyed.
B) The buildings have been dated to 200 BC- AD 200

What is fascinating is that the Thamud were actually destroyed as a tribe, in a natural disaster.

Before the Prophet Muhammad, approximately between 400-600 AD, they totally disappeared.

http://perishednations.com/thamud2.html#2_2

Thamūd,  in ancient Arabia, tribe or group of tribes that seem to have been prominent from about the 4th century bc to the first half of the 7th century ad. Although the Thamūd probably originated in southern Arabia, a large group apparently moved northward at an early date, traditionally settling on the slopes of Mount Athlab. Recent archaeological work has revealed numerous Thamūdic rock writings and pictures not only on Mount Athlab but also throughout central Arabia.
The Qurʾān mentions the Thamūd as examples of the transitoriness of worldly power. Traditionally, the Thamūd were warned by the prophet Ṣāliḥ to worship Allāh, but the Thamūd stubbornly refused and as a result were annihilated either by a thunderbolt or by an earthquake. Actually, they may have been destroyed by one of the many volcanic outbreaks that have formed the far-reaching Arabian lava fields.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/589948/Thamud

We know that the Thamud did exist and that they were all wiped out. We know that they left behind them rock writings and pictures.

We know that it was the Nabataeans, not them, who carved buildings out of rock at Madain Salih. We also know that the Thamud were around at least 500 years after the time of Moses and that they were indeed destroyed... some 200 years or so before Muhammad was born.

Originally posted by Abu Loren


Now you can talk about the Nabataeans all you want until the cows come home but it doesn't make you right. That is because you yourself has stated that they occupied the land c300 BC to c200 Ad or thereabouts, so again the people of Thamud were destroyed a long time before the Nabataeans were even alive. So your arguement just doesn't make any sense. Sure I can believe that a group of people lived there at the time frame that you mentioned but that doesn't mean that they build those buildings nor carved out the artwork there.

Muslim as well as non-Muslim archaeologists dated the buildings at Madain Saleh and found that they were constructed during the Nabataean settlement of that area, not the Thamudic one. These same archaeologists also dated rock art that was made by the Thamud, and dated it to 1,000 BC, which would have been some 200 or so years years after the time of Moses.
http://saudi-archaeology.com/history-of-petroglyph-exploration-in-arabia/
http://saudi-archaeology.com/sites/madain-saleh/
http://www.islamicurbanheritage.org.sa/english/MadanSaleh.aspx
Originally posted by Abu Loren


In fact all of your arguments on this forum are flawed because we given you answers to your questions but you are so focused on proving the Qur'an wrong that you have become blind. It proves the Qur'an that people like you have been under a veil and you cannot see the truth.

The answers given for the most part did not provide any documentation and even when they did, they were unable to disprove the information I provided.
Originally posted by Abu Loren


 The answers we gave are, for example, the honey bee eating all the fruits. Of course the bees wouldn't eat fruits that are poisonous that is just ridiculous.

Except they sometimes do.

Several native California plants have pollen or nectar that is poisonous to honeybees, which are nonnative. These include the corn lilies, death camas and the locoweeds. But those wildland species wouldn't be a major risk for urban or suburban bees. More of a problem is the California buckeye (Aesculus californica). Widely distributed west of the Sierra, this tree is often planted as an ornamental for its good looks, fragrant flowers and bold winter branch architecture.

Honeybees will visit buckeye blossoms, but the fare doesn't agree with them. (Native bees are immune, as are the checkerspots and other butterflies that are the tree's major pollinators.) The tree's large shiny seeds are so loaded with toxins that few animals attempt to eat them. California Indians ground the seeds to a powder that they used to stun fish for easy capture.

It's not clear which of several chemicals is the nasty ingredient in the flowers, or whether both the pollen and nectar are toxic. George S. Ayers, a Michigan State University entomologist who writes a column on nectar plants for the American Bee Journal, says the consensus is that it's only the pollen.

What happens when a colony gets "buckeyed," as beekeepers say? The foraging worker bees don't succumb right away, but with cumulative exposure develop paralysis-like symptoms and fatal constipation.

Meanwhile, there's big trouble back at the hive. A buckeye-fed queen may stop laying eggs, or produce only male (drone) eggs. The eggs she lays may fail to hatch, or the larvae die in infancy. Those that develop into new queens or workers have malformed wings and bodies, and the workers don't attempt to forage. Eventually, the queen may be dethroned.

By that time, as UC Davis entomologist G.H. Vansell wrote in 1932, "the demoralization of all the individuals in the colony is often complete."

http://www.sfgate.com/homeandgarden/article/Not-all-plants-are-safe-for-bees-3226596.php

Originally posted by Abu Loren


 Similarly some fruits are mentioned in the Qur'an such as dates, olives, pomegranates etc does that mean we are only allowed to eat only those fruits? Of course not.

Where did I make such an argument?
Originally posted by Abu Loren


Then your question regarding the barrier between the salt water and the fresh water, if you could just google this then you will get a photo of where the salt water meets the fresh water and there is a clear barrier you can see.

Are you possibly referring to the image below?


Originally posted by Abu Loren


It seems obvious to me that you lack simple common sense (not meant to be insulting but a fact).

It seems obvious that you are unable to refute any of the arguments I have posted with any evidence that would either
a) prove my claims wrong

or

b) prove the Quran right

So you resort to making derogatory comments about my common sense, logic and reasoning.


Edited by TG12345 - 02 November 2013 at 10:28am
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