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TG12345
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 08 August 2013 at 8:18pm
Originally posted by nothing

I am not young and there was brief time where the village I grew up did not have electricity. It was roughly 10 000 people all up max and there were only two people who had motor bikes. There were four buses depart the village to connect to the outside world, 2 to the south side and 2 to the north side.
Sure it was a town instead of a village but to go to the next village barely 8 km away there was an empty gap in between. Well not anymore, that tiny town is choc a block and there is no spaces between villages. Just 40 odd years that's all it took.

Originally posted by TG12345

The Thamud existed as a civilization before the 8th century BC, but they aren't the ones who carved the "homes" at Al Hijir... the Nabataeans were.

The Nabataeans carved the buildings at Al Hijr between the 1st century BC and the 2nd century AD


That is staggeringly 3000 years ago, yet sometime in the 1888 what part of New york look like, barely passed a century ago:

http://theselvedgeyard.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/riis_mulberry_bend.jpg?w=600&h=476



Salaam Alaikum nothing, and thank you for sharing. I'm not sure what this has to do with the Nabataeans and the fact that they carved the buildings out of rock that the Quran and Muhammad mistakenly attributed to the Thamud, but it was interesting and the picture of NYC in the 19th century was fascinating.

Allahma3k. Blessed be the Name of the Lord.
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Quote NABA Replybullet Posted: 09 August 2013 at 10:17am
I completely disagree with you when you say that God died.i ask U if God died then who control the world????in Qur'an in ch 112 v 1-4-it is said Allah is one,he is eternal,he is neither born nor begets,there is nothing like him.so we humans can't think about Allah whatever he says we have to follow,moreover Jesus christ(pbuh) says in bible in book of John ch 14 v 28-"My father is greater than I",in book of Mathews ch 12 v 28-"I cast out devils with the help of my lord",so Jesus christ(pbuh) himself says we have to worship one Allah,moreover Allah says in ch 13 v 38 that Allah had send many prophets for particular period of time and place,by name 25 prophets are mentioned in quran,since U have read hadith then U might also b knowing that in all there R 1,24,000 prophets on earth,Allah thru examples wants us to know the danger of shirk and what he had done to those who combine others with Allah,that's y Allah told us the story of thamud because they first ask prophet salih(pbuh) to show sign of Allah when Allah send she-camel to them as a sign they killed her and Allah gave them grieveous punishment,thru this we are being taught a lesson we should not reject Signs of Allah,the last revelation of Allah is quran which is the solution to humanity.

Edited by NABA - 09 August 2013 at 10:19am
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 09 August 2013 at 10:55am
Assalamu Alaikum, NABA. I will be glad to respond to your questions responding my Christian beliefs, but perhaps in order to not sidetrack this discussion, could you start a new thread? Maybe on the same subsection of the forum, since it will mean our posts will appear right away.

Originally posted by NABA

I completely disagree with you when you say that God died.i ask U if God died then who control the world????

As a Christian, I believe God exists as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Son (Jesus) died on the cross, the Father and Holy Spirit was still alive.

Originally posted by NABA


in Qur'an in ch 112 v 1-4-it is said Allah is one,he is eternal,he is neither born nor begets,there is nothing like him.

I agree He is one and eternal and there is no one like Him. He does beget though, and He did choose to be born and live among us as Jesus.

Originally posted by NABA


so we humans can't think about Allah whatever he says we have to follow,

Agreed.
Originally posted by NABA


moreover Jesus christ(pbuh) says in bible in book of John ch 14 v 28-"My father is greater than I",in book of Mathews ch 12 v 28-"I cast out devils with the help of my lord",

True, but Jesus, while on earth, made Himself voluntarily inferior to the Father.

Philippians 2:5-8

In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

Who, being in very naturea]">[a] God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
rather, he made himself nothing
    by taking the very natureb]">[b] of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    by becoming obedient to death—
        even death on a cross!

Originally posted by NABA


so Jesus christ(pbuh) himself says we have to worship one Allah,

Jesus said to worship the Father, and He worshiped the Father. He was also worshiped several times, and did nothing to discourage people from worshiping Him. If Jesus wasn't God but only a prophet, He would have not allowed people to worship Him.

John 9:35-41

35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out, and having found him he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”c]">[c] 36 He answered, “And who is he, sir, that I may believe in him?” 37 Jesus said to him, “You have seen him, and it is he who is speaking to you.” 38 He said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him. 39 Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see, and those who see may become blind.” 40 Some of the Pharisees near him heard these things, and said to him, “Are we also blind?” 41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no guilt;d]">[d] but now that you say, ‘We see,’ your guilt remains.


Matthew 14:22-32

22 
Immediately he made the disciples get into the boat and go before him to the other side, while he dismissed the crowds.
23 And after he had dismissed the crowds, he went up on the mountain by himself to pray. When evening came, he was there alone, 24 but the boat by this time was a long wayb]">[b] from the land,c]">[c] beaten by the waves, for the wind was against them. 25 And in the fourth watch of the night he came to them, walking on the sea. 26 But when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were terrified, and said, “It is a ghost!” and they cried out in fear. 27 But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, “Take heart; it is I. Do not be afraid.”

28 And Peter answered him, “Lord, if it is you, command me to come to you on the water.” 29 He said, “Come.” So Peter got out of the boat and walked on the water and came to Jesus. 30 But when he saw the wind,d]">[d] he was afraid, and beginning to sink he cried out, “Lord, save me.” 31 Jesus immediately reached out his hand and took hold of him, saying to him, “O you of little faith, why did you doubt?” 32 And when they got into the boat, the wind ceased. 33 And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.

When Jesus`disciple Peter was worshiped by Cornelius, he immediately ordered him to stop. Unlike Jesus, Peter was no more than a man.

Acts 2:25-26

24 And on the following day they entered Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25 When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am a man.”

Originally posted by NABA


moreover Allah says in ch 13 v 38 that Allah had send many prophets for particular period of time and place,by name 25 prophets are mentioned in quran,since U have read hadith then U might also b knowing that in all there R 1,24,000 prophets on earth,

Yes, the Quran and hadiths do teach that.

Originally posted by NABA


 Allah thru examples wants us to know the danger of shirk and what he had done to those who combine others with Allah,that's y Allah told us the story of thamud because they first ask prophet salih(pbuh) to show sign of Allah when Allah send she-camel to them as a sign they killed her and Allah gave them grieveous punishment,thru this we are being taught a lesson we should not reject Signs of Allah,the last revelation of Allah is quran which is the solution to humanity.

The point of the story of the Thamud and Salih is one I understand- to not commit shirk and to worship only God. I definitely agree with this, and in the Old Testament, there are also examples of God killing people for not worshiping Him but instead turning to false gods. This is a very clear and beneficial lesson for humanity. I have no problems at all with it.

However... what I am pointing out, is that the Quran, in its story of Salih and the Thamud, makes a very obvious historical mistake. There is no way to get around it.

According to the Quran, the Thamud lived at Al Hijr before the time of Moses, and carved homes out of rocks. Their homes were left desolate and according to Bukhari, Muhammad came across them later with his soldiers and told them to not enter them because of the fate of their previous owners.

The fact is that these buildings were not anyone`s homes, but tombs. And, as you yourself admitted, they were carved out of rock by the Nabataeans... who built them more than 1,000 years after Moses led the Banu Israil out of Egypt.

There is an obvious historical error in the Quran and hadiths in this regard. Therefore, the author of the Quran could not have been God, and God could not have been guiding Muhammad. I say this because God does not make errors.

Allahma3k. Blessed be His Name.


Edited by TG12345 - 09 August 2013 at 11:17am
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Quote nothing Replybullet Posted: 09 August 2013 at 4:13pm
Originally posted by TG12345

Salaam Alaikum nothing, and thank you for sharing. I'm not sure what this has to do with the Nabataeans and the fact that they carved the buildings out of rock that the Quran and Muhammad mistakenly---

I don't do hadith but you are using hadith to prove the case. I hope you are willing to shed some light of this hadith.

In the google map I checked the distance from Medina to the Madain Saleh is 361 km. The question is what the Prophet was doing there? Did he go there to prove the point? Remember we are talking about 361 km here, and I am a walker - for my exercise that is, I've been doing it for many years. With joggers on nice road, faster than normal walk I can do about 7 kh, but I only do 6kh mostly.

Just for remainder, the Jews and the Arabs, and most people in the past had the habit of exaggeration. The Bible has few of that and the hadith is her little sister.

So what he was doing there anyway?
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 09 August 2013 at 4:41pm
Originally posted by nothing

Originally posted by TG12345

Salaam Alaikum nothing, and thank you for sharing. I'm not sure what this has to do with the Nabataeans and the fact that they carved the buildings out of rock that the Quran and Muhammad mistakenly---

I don't do hadith but you are using hadith to prove the case. I hope you are willing to shed some light of this hadith.

In the google map I checked the distance from Medina to the Madain Saleh is 361 km. The question is what the Prophet was doing there? Did he go there to prove the point? Remember we are talking about 361 km here, and I am a walker - for my exercise that is, I've been doing it for many years. With joggers on nice road, faster than normal walk I can do about 7 kh, but I only do 6kh mostly.

Just for remainder, the Jews and the Arabs, and most people in the past had the habit of exaggeration. The Bible has few of that and the hadith is her little sister.

So what he was doing there anyway?

Salaam Alaikum, nothing. You wrote "I don't do hadith". Are you a Quran-only Muslim, and reject them?

According to the hadith being discussed, Muhammad and his men were traveling in that area. I don't know why they were there. You are right, it would have been quite the distance from Mecca.

I used the hadiths, because most Muslims I know accept them to be an important part of the faith, since they are Muhammad's teachings and he was allegedly a prophet of God.

If you want to discount the hadith though, sure, we can do that.


27:52 describes the houses of the Thamud as being "desolate". The present tense verb "are" is used to describe them, whereas all of the other verbs in the story that describe what happened are past tense.

27:45-53

And We had certainly sent to Thamud their brother Salih, [saying], "Worship Allah ," and at once they were two parties conflicting.
He said, "O my people, why are you impatient for evil instead of good? Why do you not seek forgiveness of Allah that you may receive mercy?"
They said, "We consider you a bad omen, you and those with you." He said, "Your omen is with Allah . Rather, you are a people being tested."
And there were in the city nine family heads causing corruption in the land and not amending [its affairs].
They said, "Take a mutual oath by Allah that we will kill him by night, he and his family. Then we will say to his executor, 'We did not witness the destruction of his family, and indeed, we are truthful.' "
And they planned a plan, and We planned a plan, while they perceived not.
Then look how was the outcome of their plan - that We destroyed them and their people, all.
So those are their houses, desolate because of the wrong they had done. Indeed in that is a sign for people who know.
And We saved those who believed and used to fear Allah .


Elsewhere in the Quran, it is stated that the Thamud carved their homes out of rocks. These homes were evidently, according to the Quran, still standing when it was revealed to Muhammad.

The fact remains though that in Al Hijr, the only buildings that are around that were carved out of rock, were those of the Nabataeans.

The Quran is still in error here.
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Quote NABA Replybullet Posted: 10 August 2013 at 1:20pm
I m giving an example to u I live in Bhopal in my house in 2013, hundred years after that I will not b there and may b new generation will create new houses and few yrs after that scientists will discover that new generatios only created the buildings but does it nullify the fact that I live in the house?? I want to tell u that yes nabaeteans may create those structures but there is a possibility that nabaeteans may have replaced those structures with theirs.Allah alone knows the truth but since it is mentionedin Quran i will believe in it as a muslim.I can't understand u agree that Allah is one and then u say Allah is trinity, I want to ask u what is the meaning of begotten according to u??? Since u agree that Allah is eternal then how could u say that he died, because eternal means free from diseases.the quotes u presented from bible nothing mentions that jesus christ (pbuh) claimed divinity.in fact if u believe Allah is one then u should also believe that Allah clearly forbids concept of trinity of God in surah an nisa ch 4 v 171 in quran, Allah doesn't need to take any form to solve problem of mankind, Allah says in surah al anam ch 6 v 8-they say y Allah doesn't send Angels as messengers for mankind Allah said if Allah had send angels as messengers to earth the unbelievers would b dazzled by their light.so Allah always send human beings as prophets for human beings on earth so that human beings could learn from life of prophets and implement them in their lives.
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 10 August 2013 at 3:56pm
Assalamu Alaikum, NABA.

Originally posted by NABA

I m giving an example to u I live in Bhopal in my house in 2013, hundred years after that I will not b there and may b new generation will create new houses and few yrs after that scientists will discover that new generatios only created the buildings but does it nullify the fact that I live in the house??

This is a great example, let's follow it.

If the house you lived in still stood there after 100 years and someone points to it and says "NABA used to live in that house", that would be true. If however someone destroyed your house or it collapsed and someone built a new one on top of it, it would be incorrect to point to that new building and say "NABA used to live in that house".

Now let's say that your house was a small one made of wood, and the people after you built a skyscraper 100 years in the future. It would be very much false to point to the skyscraper and say "NABA used to live in that house".

Now let's examine the evidence from the Quran. It states that the Thamud not only used to live in Al Hijr, but they carved houses out of stone. Historical evidence shows us that yes, the Thamud did indeed live in Al Hijr. They left some artifacts and a few inscriptions. However, the buildings that were carved out of rock... they were not carved out by the Thamud, but by the Nabataeans. In fact, the Nabataeans carved buildings out of rock not only in Al Hijr, but also Petra. Carving buildings out of rocks was something that the Nabateans were known for, not other civilizations in that area.

Originally posted by NABA

I want to tell u that yes nabaeteans may create those structures but there is a possibility that nabaeteans may have replaced those structures with theirs.

How could the Nabateans have replaced rock carved tombs with those of their own?

Dating by archaeologists- Western as well as Saudi, shows us that the tombs were carved between the 1st century BC and the 1st century AD. One of the archaeologists stating this is Majeed Khan, who not only has a Ph. D in archaeology, but has been associated with the Saudi Antiquities Department for 35 years. The First International Conference for Urban Heritage in the Islamic countries also backs this up.

The buildings described both in the Quran and by Muhammad as "homes" of the Thamud that they allegedly carved out of rock, were made by the Nabataeans.

Originally posted by NABA

Allah alone knows the truth but since it is mentionedin Quran i will believe in it as a muslim.

Allah alone does know the truth. I realize that as a Muslim you choose to believe in the Quran. However, on the topic of the Thamud and Al Hijr, the Quran is mistaken. Muhammad was also mistaken as to who built the houses he and his men were passing by.

Allah is perfect and does not make mistakes, therefore He cannot have been the author of the Quran.

Originally posted by NABA

I can't understand u agree that Allah is one and then u say Allah is trinity,

Trinity means that God exists as three persons. He exists as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. That is something that would be impossible for us to accomplish or be, but for God everything is possible. Both the Bible and Quran say that God is everywhere. He can hear us whenever we pray to Him, and can speak to as many people as He wants.

Does that mean that there are many Allahs, since neither of us are capable of listening to billions of people simultaneously and talking to several people at once?  Or is He beyond our limitations, and just because something is impossible for us does not mean it is impossible for Him?

Originally posted by NABA

  I want to ask u what is the meaning of begotten according to u???

Begotten, when used in the Bible to describe Jesus, would mean that He is unique, like no one else.

So what does monogenes mean? According to the Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (BAGD, 3rd Edition), monogenes has two primary definitions. The first definition is "pertaining to being the only one of its kind within a specific relationship." This is its meaning in Hebrews 11:17 when the writer refers to Isaac as Abraham's "only begotten son" (KJV). Abraham had more than one son, but Isaac was the only son he had by Sarah and the only son of the covenant. Therefore, it is the uniqueness of Isaac among the other sons that allows for the use of monogenes in that context.

The second definition is "pertaining to being the only one of its kind or class, unique in kind." This is the meaning that is implied in John 3:16 (see also John 1:14, 18; 3:18; 1 John 4:9). John was primarily concerned with demonstrating that Jesus is the Son of God (John 20:31), and he uses monogenes to highlight Jesus as uniquely God's Son—sharing the same divine nature as God—as opposed to believers who are God's sons and daughters by adoption (Ephesians 1:5). Jesus is God’s “one and only” Son.


Originally posted by NABA

Since u agree that Allah is eternal then how could u say that he died, because eternal means free from diseases.

Eternal means that one always exists and always existed and always will exist. Allah exists as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Allah the Son (Jesus) died temporarily, but Allah the Father and Allah the Holy Spirit did not die. Allah died in one way, but in another also remained alive. Again, this would be something completely impossible for us to do. But for Him, everything is possible.

Originally posted by NABA

 
the quotes u presented from bible nothing mentions that jesus christ (pbuh) claimed divinity.

No, but they show us that He was worshiped. If He was not claiming divinity, would not He have told the people who were worshiping to stop?

I will give you more examples from the Bible, where Jesus claimed divinity.

If you allow me, I am going to plagiarize something I myself wrote on Christian Forums.

Jesus said:

- That those who have seen Him have seen the Father
John 14:7-10
7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also.[d] From now on you do know him and have seen him.” 8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?


- That He and the Father are one
John 10:29-30
29 My Father, who has given them to me,[a] is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

- That He will judge the world
Matthew 25:31-49

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,[a] you did it to me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


Jesus commanded people to baptize others in the name of the Father, Himself, and the Holy Spirit. This points to the fact that Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are one God.

Matthew 28:18-20
18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[b] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

- Several times in all of the Gospels, Jesus was worshiped by people. He never told them to stop worshiping Him.

There are numerous examples of this, one would be in Matthew 28:17
17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted

http://www.christianforums.com/t7670841-8/#post60974335

Did Muhammad ever say he and Allah are one? Did he say that those who have seen him have seen Allah? Did he say he is going to judge the world, and decide who will go to heaven and who will go to hell? Was he ever worshiped?

Was any other prophet, either in the Quran or Old Testament?

Who but God can be one with God? Who but God looks like God? Who but God will judge the world? Who but God can accept worship?

The Bible clearly states that Jesus said He is God.

Originally posted by NABA

 
in fact if u believe Allah is one then u should also believe that Allah clearly forbids concept of trinity of God in surah an nisa ch 4 v 171 in quran

How does 4:171 forbid the concept of the Trinity? Please explain.

Originally posted by NABA

, Allah doesn't need to take any form to solve problem of mankind,

Of course He doesn't. He chose to do so. I am sure Allah doesn't need a throne to sit on, but we both believe He sits on a throne. Just because He doesn't need to do something, does not mean He doesn't do it.

Originally posted by NABA

Allah says in surah al anam ch 6 v 8-they say y Allah doesn't send Angels as messengers for mankind Allah said if Allah had send angels as messengers to earth the unbelievers would b dazzled by their light.so Allah always send human beings as prophets for human beings on earth so that human beings could learn from life of prophets and implement them in their lives.

We agree that He sent human beings as prophets, until He came down personally in the form of Jesus.

The Quran rightly points out that Allah sent prophets. However, some of its stories regarding the prophets are simply not true.
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Quote NABA Replybullet Posted: 11 August 2013 at 7:27am
Surah An Nisa ch 4 v 171-Allah strictly forbids trinity and he says don't commit excessiveness in religion and believe that Allah is one,I have read the article of majid khan in pasthorizons.com he never mentioned about nabaeteans,in fact he said it is difficult to interpret the signs.Jesus christ(pbuh)condemns divinity in book of John ch 19 v 16-17.
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