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TG12345
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Topic: Error in Quran and hadiths about Thamud
    Posted: 06 August 2013 at 6:26pm
Salaam Alaikum.

I originally posted this in the InterFaith section, but for some reason it didn't show, so I will try here.

The Quran describes a prophet called Salih, who lived in the Thamud tribe. The Thamud did not worship God, and were disobedient. God sent Salih to warn them, then after they ignored him and murdered a she-camel that God sent, He killed them and left only Salih and those who followed him alive.

The story can be found in the following verses.

11:61-68 and 7:73-79 and 15:80-84.

The Quran teaches that Salih lived after Hud, and before Shuaib and Moses and other prophets.

The Quran makes sure to include that the Thamud would carve out homes in the mountains.

7:73, 74

To the Thamud people (We sent) Salih, one of their own brethren: He said: "O my people! worship Allah: ye have no other god but Him. Now hath come unto you a clear (Sign) from your Lord! This she-camel of Allah is a Sign unto you: So leave her to graze in Allah's earth, and let her come to no harm, or ye shall be seized with a grievous punishment.

"And remember how He made you inheritors after the 'Ad people and gave you habitations in the land: ye build for yourselves palaces and castles in (open) plains, and care out homes in the mountains; so bring to remembrance the benefits (ye have received) from Allah, and refrain from evil and mischief on the earth."


15:80-84


And verily, the dwellers of Al-Hijr (the rocky tract) denied the Messengers.
And We gave them Our Signs, but they were averse to them.

And they used to hew out dwellings from the mountains (feeling themselves) secure.
But As-Saihah (torment - awful cry etc.) overtook them in the early morning (of the fourth day of their promised punishment days).
And all that which they used to earn availed them not.


When Muhammad and his men were passing through the valley where the Thamud used to live, he ordered them to not enter the houses "but weepingly", and they quickly rode through the valley.

(5) Ibn Shihab reported, and he had been talking about the stony abodes of thamud, and he said: Salim b. 'Abdullah reported that 'Abdullah b. Umar said: We were passing along with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) through the habitations of Hijr, and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Do not enter but weepingly the habitations of these persons who committed tyranny among themselves, lest the same calamity should fall upon you as it fell upon them. He then urged his mount to proceed quickly and pass through that valley hurriedly. (Book #042, Hadith #7104)

http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHad...earch_word=all

Muhammad forbade his men to drink the water from the wells of the people there, and only allowed them to drink from where the she-camel used to drink.


(6) Abdullah b. 'Umar reported that the people encamped along with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) in the valley of Hijr, the habitations of thamud, and they quenched their thirst from the wells thereof and kneaded the flour with it. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) commanded that the water collected for drinking should be spilt and the flour should be given to the camels and commanded them that the water for drinking should be taken from that well where the she-camel (of Hadrat Salih) used to come. (Book #042, Hadith #7105)

http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHad...earch_word=all

The place is now a UNESCO site, and the pictures of the buildings testify to the accuracy of the Quran's description about the buildings being hewn out from rock.



Al-Hijr Archaeological Site (Madâin Sâlih) - UNESCO World Heritage Centre

However, the buildings are not homes, they were actually tombs. And what is worse, they were not built by the Thamud but by the Nabateans. They were built not before the time of Moses, but during the first century BC and the 1st century AD. During this time, the Nabateans built structures out of rock throughout their Kingdom.

Most of the monuments and inscriptions of the archaeological site of Al-Hijr date from the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE. But the inscriptions in Lihyanite script and some recently discovered archaeological vestiges are evidence for human settlement as early as the 3rd or 2nd century BCE.
One-third of the tombs, which are amongst the largest, are clearly dated to between 0-75 CE.

The Hedjaz region was integrated into the Roman province of Arabia in 106 CE. A monumental Roman epigraph of 175-177 CE was recently discovered at Al- Hijr. The region then formed part of Roman history, and then Byzantine history, until the 7th century. In 356, the city of Hegra is again mentioned, as being led by a mayor of local origin, but it seems to have been very modest in size at that time.

Al-Hijr Archaeological Site (Madâin Sâlih) - UNESCO World Heritage Centre


2) The Nabataean city of Hegra or Al-Hijr was formed
around a central residential zone and its oasis
. The
sandstone outcrops at various degrees of proximity
offered outstanding possibilities for rock-cut necropoles
or spaces, forming a remarkable site for the expression of
Nabataean monumental architecture.

http://whc.unesco.org/archive/adviso...ation/1293.pdf

According to the First International Conference for Urban Heritage in the Islamic countries, Al Hijr was settled by the Thamud and other people groups before the Nabateans, but the Nabateans were the only ones who built a city... they carved tombs out of rocks. There have been remains of prehistoric people discovered in some of the mountains as well as petroglyphs. The Lihyanites, Thamud and Minaites left inscriptions... however it was the Nabateans who carved buildings out of rock. They settled in the area around the 1st century BC and built a city.




Al-Hijr lies in northwest Saudi Arabia, between the cities of Medina and Tabuk, 22 kilometres north of the city of al-Ula. Remains of human occupation in the region go back to ancient times. The area has been a significant focus of human settlement over a long period, due to the abundance of factors supporting an early shift to a sedentary way of life. These include fertile land, the presence of sources of water and a strategic position with respect to the great centres of civilization in the ancient Near East. Prehistoric remains have been recorded at the top of some of the mountains which surround the site of Madain Salih. Moreover, many rock faces in the area are covered with petroglyphs, some of which are prehistoric.

According to several passages in the Quran, the site was already inhabited in the third millennium BC by the Thamudic tribes. Lihyanite, Minaic and Thamudic inscriptions which have been found on the site, are evidence for an occupation in the first millennium BC.

The Nabataeans probably settled in Madain Salih in the first century BC and were politically independent at least until the beginning of the second century AD.

They are the only inhabitants of the site who left behind them the remains of a real city. The part of the city in which the people were living was surrounded by various necropolises, which contained monumental rock-cut tombs as well as ordinary pit tombs, while a specific area was devoted to sanctuaries. Water was provided by a dense network of wells.

During the Islamic period, al-Hijr was an important stop on the Syrian pilgrimage road. A citadel and a large reservoir were built for the pilgrims convenience. Finally, at the beginning of the 20th century, a railway station was constructed at Madain Salih on the so-called Hejaz railway, which linked Turkey to the city of Madina, also crossing Syria.


First International Conference For Urban Heritage In The Islamic Countries


The buildings that Muhammad and his men came across were not built by the Thamud before the time of Moses, but by the Nabateans who built it between the 1st century BC and 1st century AD. *

The Quran's claim that the buildings carved out of rock were made by the Thamud during the time of Salih is false.

*They were also tombs, not houses as Muhammad and the author of the Quran evidently believed

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Quote NABA Replybullet Posted: 07 August 2013 at 9:49am
the buildings were made by Thamud,because their historical record is in history of Babylon,king sergon 2 of Babylon defeated them in 8th century BC Nabateans were the descendants of thamud whose capital was Petra in 312 BC in Jordan.
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 07 August 2013 at 12:14pm
Originally posted by NABA

the buildings were made by Thamud,because their historical record is in history of Babylon,king sergon 2 of Babylon defeated them in 8th century BC Nabateans were the descendants of thamud whose capital was Petra in 312 BC in Jordan.

Assalamu Alaikum, NABA. The Thamud existed as a civilization before the 8th century BC, but they aren't the ones who carved the "homes" at Al Hijir... the Nabataeans were.

The Nabataeans carved the buildings at Al Hijr between the 1st century BC and the 2nd century AD, so the sources I have presented show. Why you bring Petra into the discussion I'm not sure, but as you pointed out, it was the capital of the Nabataeans in 312 BC. They built it a few hundred years befpre building the tombs at Al Hijr.

Christian, Muslim and Jewish historians differ on when Moses lived, but they agree it was before 1100 BC. The Quran teaches that Salih lived before Moses.

The tombs carved out of rock that Muhammad came across in Al Hijr and believed were made by the Thamud during or before the time of Salih (according to the Quran), were carved in fact almost if not more than a millennium later.

The author of the Quran, as well as Muhammad, made a historical miscalculation of at least one thousand years.


Edited by TG12345 - 07 August 2013 at 2:35pm
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Quote NABA Replybullet Posted: 08 August 2013 at 4:37am
First of all is there any solid proof that nabaeteans created stones???because the writings or carvings of stones are indicating the carvings made of 6th century b.c. even if we take ur logic that nabaeteans created buildings then why they would create scriptures of 6th century B.C??? The author of Quran is almighty Allah which was revealed thru prophet Muhammad S.A.W (pbuh).
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 08 August 2013 at 5:44am
Originally posted by NABA

First of all is there any solid proof that nabaeteans created stones???because the writings or carvings of stones are indicating the carvings made of 6th century b.c. even if we take ur logic that nabaeteans created buildings then why they would create scriptures of 6th century B.C??? The author of Quran is almighty Allah which was revealed thru prophet Muhammad S.A.W (pbuh).


Assalamu Alaikum, NABA.

Of course the Nabataeans didn't create stones. Neither did the Thamud. Neither did Adam. Only God did.

However, the Nabataeans are the ones who carved buildings out of rocks. This has been verified by archaeologists, not only Western ones from UNESCO but also Saudi ones, who dated these buildings. Here is another site set up by both Saudi and Western archaeologists which says the same thing:

Madain Saleh, not far from al-Ula (22 km), was known as al-Hijr, or Hegra, by the Nabataean people who carved its magnificent tombs into the golden Quweira sandstone outcrops. The delicate details on the entrance portals and the smooth surfaces of its 111 tomb faades reflect the great skills of the masons of their time. The splendor of the natural setting here must have reminded the Nabataeans of their capital, Petra, hewn into the rosey sandstone cliffs to the north in modern-day Jordan. It is no wonder that they chose this very spot to build their second city, Hegra. Based on the many dated tomb inscriptions, Hegra thrived between 1 BCE -74 CE.

http://saudi-archaeology.com/sites/madain-saleh/


It is true that people lived in Al Hijr before the Nabataeans, and they left inscriptions behind them. There are Thamudic, Lihyanite, and Minaic inscriptions on the site. There have also been found human remains and other archaeological evidence.

Al-Hijr lies in northwest Saudi Arabia, between the cities of Medina and Tabuk, 22 kilometres north of the city of al-Ula. Remains of human occupation in the region go back to ancient times. The area has been a significant focus of human settlement over a long period, due to the abundance of factors supporting an early shift to a sedentary way of life. These include fertile land, the presence of sources of water and a strategic position with respect to the great centres of civilization in the ancient Near East. Prehistoric remains have been recorded at the top of some of the mountains which surround the site of Madain Salih. Moreover, many rock faces in the area are covered with petroglyphs, some of which are prehistoric.

According to several passages in the Quran, the site was already inhabited in the third millennium BC by the Thamudic tribes. L
ihyanite, Minaic and Thamudic inscriptions which have been found on the site, are evidence for an occupation in the first millennium BC.

http://www.islamicurbanheritage.org.sa/english/MadanSaleh.aspx
 
However, the people who carved the tombs and left remains of a city were the Nabataeans.

The Nabataeans probably settled in Madain Salih in the first century BC and were politically independent at least until the beginning of the second century AD.

They are the only inhabitants of the site who left behind them the remains of a real city. The part of the city in which the people were living was surrounded by various necropolises, which contained monumental rock-cut tombs as well as ordinary pit tombs, while a specific area was devoted to sanctuaries. Water was provided by a dense network of wells.

http://www.islamicurbanheritage.org.sa/english/MadanSaleh.aspx

The Nabateans evidently carved into rocks which had inscriptions on them left by previous people. You pointed out that the inscriptions were made in the 6th century BC. This would indicate clearly that they couldn't have been made by the Thamud, because Moses lived 500+ years before that.

The author of the Quran was very intelligent, and the moral of the story of Salih- to worship God and obey His messenger- is a very good one. However, the author is not Allah, because Allah would have known that the Nabataeans, not the Thamud, were the ones who carved buildings out of rock.
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Quote NABA Replybullet Posted: 08 August 2013 at 11:26am
Thamud tribe was destroyed by Allah by soundwave (rajfa), okay I completely agree that structures we found today are built by nabaetean, but since Allah says that thamud destroyed so nabaeteans created new structures, because if u know the story that unbelievers of thamud asked prophet Saleh (pbuh ) to show the sign of Allah, Allah showed them the sign that a she-camel was produced from mountain, u can c its pics at www.Quranandscience.com.it presents a picture like a palm, area around it doesn't seem that the disaster which was done to thamud people was volcano.so even if nabaeteans created that buildings, there are more chances if reconstruction.Allah is the author of Quran, u can view some of my posts in science and technology.
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 08 August 2013 at 2:12pm
Originally posted by NABA

Thamud tribe was destroyed by Allah by soundwave (rajfa), okay I completely agree that structures we found today are built by nabaetean, but since Allah says that thamud destroyed so nabaeteans created new structures, because if u know the story that unbelievers of thamud asked prophet Saleh (pbuh ) to show the sign of Allah, Allah showed them the sign that a she-camel was produced from mountain, u can c its pics at www.Quranandscience.com.it presents a picture like a palm, area around it doesn't seem that the disaster which was done to thamud people was volcano.so even if nabaeteans created that buildings, there are more chances if reconstruction.Allah is the author of Quran, u can view some of my posts in science and technology.

Assalamu Alaikum, NABA. Thanks for the site, I checked it out. The pictures do indeed suggest that there was no volcano that destroyed the Thamud. I never suggested such a hypothesis either, of course.

I am glad we agree that the structures we see today are built by the Nabataeans, not the Thamud. They were built in between the 2nd century BC and the 1st century AD, it seems.

The Quran claims that the Thamud carved houses out of rock. God destroyed them, and left their houses desolate, or ruined. They were evidently still desolate when the Quran was written.

So those are their houses, desolate* because of the wrong they had done. Indeed in that is a sign for people who know.

Surat An-Naml [27:52] - The Noble Qur'an - القرآن الكريم
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Word by Word Grammar, Syntax and Morphology of the Holy Quran
* according to Corpus Quran, the word is "ruined".

Tafsir Ibn Abbas explains this verse in this way:

(See, yonder are their dwellings empty and in ruins because they did wrong) because of their idolatry. (Lo! Herein) in that which We did to them (is indeed a portent) a sign and an admonition (for a people who have knowledge) who believe in that which was done to them.

http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=27&tAyahNo=52&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

 Muhammad claimed that the "houses" he saw were those of the Thamud, and told his men to keep away from them. He was obviously looking at the structures in Madain Saleh, the structures which we agree were built by the Nabataeans.

The author of the Quran evidently believed that the tombs we can see in Al Hijr that are the work of the Nabataeans, were homes that were carved out by the Thamud, who according to its account, lived at least a milennium before them. Muhammad believed this error, to the point that he told his men that these homes were those of the Thamud, and ordered them to keep away. 

Allah is the greatest. He is loving, He is all-knowing, He is good. He came down to earth to live among us as Jesus Christ, and died on the cross so that by believing in Him, we could find salvation.

The Quran is a book that is filled with lots of wisdom and good advice for humanity, it is also filled with scientific truths that an ordinary person in 7th century Arabia would not know. However, the Quran also contains errors, scientific as well as historical. This proves to me it is not His Word. Allah does not make mistakes. He also would not give Muhammad, or anyone else, false information. He is not a liar.

I will be glad to check out your posts in "Science and Technology", thank you for directing me. Regarding this section, I am looking forward to read your response on the thread "Question about 25:53 and 55:19,20"
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25822

If there are any threads in particular that you wrote that you would like me to read and respond to, please list them.

May Allah guide us both closer to Him, and may you find salvation in Him.

Eid Mubarak wa Allahma3k.
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Quote nothing Replybullet Posted: 08 August 2013 at 6:01pm
I am not young and there was brief time where the village I grew up did not have electricity. It was roughly 10 000 people all up max and there were only two people who had motor bikes. There were four buses depart the village to connect to the outside world, 2 to the south side and 2 to the north side.
Sure it was a town instead of a village but to go to the next village barely 8 km away there was an empty gap in between. Well not anymore, that tiny town is choc a block and there is no spaces between villages. Just 40 odd years that's all it took.

Originally posted by TG12345

The Thamud existed as a civilization before the 8th century BC, but they aren't the ones who carved the "homes" at Al Hijir... the Nabataeans were.

The Nabataeans carved the buildings at Al Hijr between the 1st century BC and the 2nd century AD


That is staggeringly 3000 years ago, yet sometime in the 1888 what part of New york look like, barely passed a century ago:

http://theselvedgeyard.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/riis_mulberry_bend.jpg?w=600&h=476


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