Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: Error in Quran and hadiths about Thamud Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 24 Next >>
Author Message
TG12345
Male Christian
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 December 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 836
Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 11 September 2013 at 7:50pm
Salaam Alaikum.
Originally posted by NABA

I have seen that Majeed Khan said that it was difficult to interpret as a Muslim

He said this about rock art, not the buildings at Al Hijr. Why are you misquoting him?
Originally posted by NABA


 he believes what Qur'an says,he also applies the logic that they are chances that nabaeteans may have create structures several years after demolition of thamud but kneeling place n well of she camel confirms the fact that structures were made by thamud.

Majeed Khan did not write anything about the kneeling place or well of the she-camel. Please provide me a quote from him even mentioning those things, directly or from the site he co-authored, or "confirming" that the structures were made by the Thamud.

I provided you quotes from the site he coauthored that states that the Nabateans built the structures at Al Hijr.
IP IP Logged
quintessential
Male Islam
Starter.
Starter.
Avatar

Joined: 12 September 2013
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5
Quote quintessential Replybullet Posted: 12 September 2013 at 6:58am
@TG12345

Please do not alienate yourself by stating absolutes!
At least preface your proclamations with "I believe" or "To the best of my knowledge"
To just state "The Quran is wrong" as you do time and time again invalidates your intellect. We're all humans, you,me, the scientists,the archeologists,just mere humans. We do the best that we can and deduce the deductions we can. These deductions and such change over time as our means to deduce them increases. The guarantee that from a scientific standpoint at any given time we are absolutely correct is NOT 100%. That is what Science is,a constant study, a constant refining. For you or anybody to come out say, this,this,and that, boom! I know this for a fact now guys, this is how it is for sure,and then go on to make grand statements like "the Quran is Wrong, Mohammed(S.A.W) was not guided by Allah" is for lack of a more respectful word foolish.

What you can say is:To the best of my understanding. All current Archeological evidence leads me to believe that the Nabaethians were the ones that built what the hadith described, not the Thamud.....that's a perfectly fine statement to make based on the evidence we have today. In my understanding from you're detailed reasoning and proofs of the subject it seems very clear the Naebethians did build stone carvings that stood around that time. Does that mean that it is entirely impossible for
the Thamud to have ever built stone carvings themselves,the uses of which were later incorporated or adapted  and thus ascribed to Naebethians by modern day scientists,or that later on their civilization was destroyed, left desolate? Nope! sorry to burst your bubble.... Because archeological evidence and research of the present day does not point to something, does not mean it is 100% QED categorically proven absolutely false. I'm sorry, that's not how science works. Of course it does not prove that its true either. Can you find me a panel of experts categorically stating that it is impossible for the thamud to have built any stone carvings that might later have been trans-mutated in form or use by a subsequent civilization? i doubt it.
All in all Science and the Quran go hand in hand, i doubt your objectivity if you can skip over the big bag theory(one of the greatest scientific theories of our time) clearly stated in the Quran and choose a study of a hadith to come to a conclusion that "quran is not the word of Allah" You're not fooling any real muslims,not to sound preachy but we've been told of people like you. Ignore the obvious and stretch out the not so obvious to try and prove a point.
You can choose to believe whatever you want but please, enough with the grandiose proclamations. You, like the rest of us have limited knowledge.
Allah knows best.

On the subject of the Quran vs Bible. Its not even an argument. The Quran is today as it was then. You know full well the bible has been added to and subtracted from countless times since its inception. Treaty of nicea aside its impossible to know whats what in the bible. I do,like all muslims believe that there is an authentic bible somewhere out there brought to us by Jesus but it lost to mankind from all the tampering since.This is generally agreed upon historically. Books added and excluded for political gain and what not.Translation after translation through the ages. It not being in its original tongue alone is enough cause for concern.Still I read it as it exists for what truth still lies underneath.

IP IP Logged
NABA
Male Islam
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 13 December 2012
Location: India
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 577
Quote NABA Replybullet Posted: 12 September 2013 at 7:03am
did Majeed Khan said Qur'an is wrong??moreover I have not said that khan told about kneeling place of she camel,In fact i showed U the appendix of Abdullah Yusuf Ali regarding this fact.
IP IP Logged
quintessential
Male Islam
Starter.
Starter.
Avatar

Joined: 12 September 2013
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5
Quote quintessential Replybullet Posted: 12 September 2013 at 8:05am
@NABA
In the hadith mentioned it is possible Rasul was not even speaking about "houses" literally but as a metaphor for the location simply because it is the same location where the Thamud used to inhabit in the past. Metaphors and simiitudes and parables are very common. If the Thamud did spend time occupying that location previosly, despite subsequent civilizations it is not a stretch by any means to still refer to the land as  the "house of the thamud" The area was generally still called Thamud long after the Thamud had gone even when it was occupied by others. Your're talking about Arabs here, very poetic, known to frequently not speak in the literal sense. Its not like he said "do not go into that house right there where i am pointing where the Thamud lived when they were alive, that house right there that was specifically carved out of stone by the thamud people and no one else, that same people that were destroyed ,the people Allah spoke of in the Quran when he said built stone carvings out of mountains, I am not speaking metaphorically I am categorically stating that those are the only people that built them"

 I think he was warning them not to go to the location where the thamud people that once lived there used to go when they were alive. he wanted them to go somewhere else to get water. What he spoke of when he said house of Thamud was the location they were, not what was specifically AT the location or which specific people built exactly what was presently at the location. That is left for us to speculate,study and what not.

 Even if you take it literrally and want to say they were "tombs" not "houses" One can surmise that "tombs" are "houses" of the dead. Nabathians could have chosen to build tombs there because Thamud built their tombs there previosly. Who knows. In Islam when you die your tomb where you are buried becomes your home until the day of judgement. So it would be where the spirits of the now deceased Thamud would be "housed", it does not matter if nabaethians built over it afterward.They died there so that is where their spirits "habitate"....but i'm just thinking out loud at this point.Its an authentic hadith though not the word of Allah, it was said by a man, written by a man and is subject to interpretation of men. Rasul was a deeply soulful man and he had a way with words. Islam itself is beautiful and the way things are conveyed are beautiful and require thought and reflection and then more thought.

EDIT: I think you shouldn't waste any more time here, you're arguing with a Christian(and not a monotheistic one either, one that practices shirk. Anything other than saying Allah is "One" is shirk.Saying anything more is Shirk. Allah in three forms is shirk. Period.) with an agenda here. He's specifically going for one conclusion,he will never settle for any other possible interpretation of the hadith in question other than the one that leads him to where he wants to go. He is clearly bright enough to have gleaned at least one other possible train of thought that might cast doubt but instead has chosen to stay with this ONE line of reasoning for the sake of his quran is not the word of Allah grand proclamation purpose.  One rebuttal is enough: "Lakum deena Kum waleeya deen"


Edited by quintessential - 12 September 2013 at 1:02pm
IP IP Logged
TG12345
Male Christian
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 December 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 836
Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 12 September 2013 at 8:00pm
Salaam Alaikum.

Originally posted by NABA

did Majeed Khan said Qur'an is wrong??

No, but his research clearly shows this to be the case.
Originally posted by NABA


moreover I have not said that khan told about kneeling place of she camel,In fact i showed U the appendix of Abdullah Yusuf Ali regarding this fact.

Sorry, I misunderstood you. Yusuf Ali did not provide any evidence that the kneeling place of the she-camel is what he says it is. I have shown you evidence that in addition to the buildings in Al Hijr, the wells were also built by the Nabataeans.

A question for you. Does the Quran state that Hinduism is false?
IP IP Logged
NABA
Male Islam
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 13 December 2012
Location: India
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 577
Quote NABA Replybullet Posted: 13 September 2013 at 7:28am
Qur'an says only religion acceptable in sight of Allah is Islam(ch 3 v 19),Allah says no religion is acceptable besides Islam(ch 3 v 85),so there is no question of another religion,but Allah says in ch 6 v 108-don't blame another religion because in ignorance its followers will disrespect Allah,moreover Allah says in ch 16 v 125-Invite to the way of lord with beautiful words and preachings and argue with them in best possible manner.again I will repeat 100 years after at my residence new generation will create malls does that mean my house never existed??everbody is applying this logic in this case except U!!!!!.at quintessential brother Allah says in ch 88 v 21-22-give the message giving guidance is in hands of Allah but I feel very disgusted when someone attributes death to Allah.this is totally unacceptable.our prophet Muhammad(pbuh) said if U can't stop bad thing with ur hand at least stop with ur mouth,how can I keep silent when someone interferes with oneness of Allah.

Edited by NABA - 13 September 2013 at 7:33am
IP IP Logged
iec786
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 06 February 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 474
Quote iec786 Replybullet Posted: 13 September 2013 at 11:03am
Hinduism is false, Polytheism is the worship or belief in multiple deities usually assembled into a pantheon of gods and goddesses, along with their own religions and rituals.
The Quran says
Say, "He is Allah , [who is] One,
112:2
Allah , the Eternal Refuge.
112:3
He neither begets nor is born,
112:4
Nor is there to Him any equivalent.

Now who is the Author of the Bible? and did Jesus hear the word Christian?

Was Jesus a Christian????

Edited by iec786 - 14 September 2013 at 5:37am
IP IP Logged
TG12345
Male Christian
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 December 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 836
Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 16 September 2013 at 7:19pm
Salaam Alaikum.
Originally posted by quintessential

@TG12345
Please do not alienate yourself by stating absolutes!
At least preface your proclamations with "I believe" or "To the best of my knowledge"
To just state "The Quran is wrong" as you do time and time again invalidates your intellect.

You have no problems with stating absolutes, so why you tell me not to do is beyond me...

On the subject of the Quran vs Bible. Its not even an argument. The Quran is today as it was then. You know full well the bible has been added to and subtracted from countless times since its inception. Treaty of nicea aside its impossible to know whats what in the bible.

All in all Science and the Quran go hand in hand
, i doubt your objectivity if you can skip over the big bag theory(one of the greatest scientific theories of our time) clearly stated in the Quran and choose a study of a hadith to come to a conclusion that "quran is not the word of Allah"

Consistency is a great thing, and it goes a long way.
Originally posted by quintessential


We're all humans, you,me, the scientists,the archeologists,just mere humans.

Agreed. To that list, I would also add the author of the Quran.
Originally posted by quintessential


 We do the best that we can and deduce the deductions we can. These deductions and such change over time as our means to deduce them increases. The guarantee that from a scientific standpoint at any given time we are absolutely correct is NOT 100%. That is what Science is,a constant study, a constant refining. For you or anybody to come out say, this,this,and that, boom! I know this for a fact now guys, this is how it is for sure,and then go on to make grand statements like "the Quran is Wrong, Mohammed(S.A.W) was not guided by Allah" is for lack of a more respectful word foolish.

So your argument seems to state that because our scientific knowledge may change, we don't know that we are absolutely correct. Yet you have no problem with using science to defend the Quran. How do you know that this scientific knowledge is 100% correct?

The evidence that we have points us to the obvious fact that the buildings at Al Hijr were built not by the Thamud, but the Nabataeans. The Nabataeans also built such structures at Petra.

There is no evidence to suggest that the Thamud ever built such structures.

Originally posted by quintessential


What you can say is:To the best of my understanding. All current Archeological evidence leads me to believe that the Nabaethians were the ones that built what the hadith described, not the Thamud.....that's a perfectly fine statement to make based on the evidence we have today.

As long as you say that from the best of your understanding, scientific evidence suggests that the Quran is correct, and manuscript evidence suggests there were additions to the Bible, instead of stating absolutes, like you have done so in the response.
Originally posted by quintessential


 In my understanding from you're detailed reasoning and proofs of the subject it seems very clear the Naebethians did build stone carvings that stood around that time.

I am glad you acknowledge this fact.
Originally posted by quintessential


Does that mean that it is entirely impossible for
the Thamud to have ever built stone carvings themselves,the uses of which were later incorporated or adapted  and thus ascribed to Naebethians by modern day scientists,or that later on their civilization was destroyed, left desolate? Nope! sorry to burst your bubble.... Because archeological evidence and research of the present day does not point to something, does not mean it is 100% QED categorically proven absolutely false. I'm sorry, that's not how science works. Of course it does not prove that its true either. Can you find me a panel of experts categorically stating that it is impossible for the thamud to have built any stone carvings that might later have been trans-mutated in form or use by a subsequent civilization? i doubt it.

Is it possible for the Thamud to have built stone carvings, the uses of whuch were ascribed to the Nabataeans? Sure. It is also possible that these stone houses were built by angels, or demons, or a group of people that lived long before the Thamud. Maybe Adam built them, who knows.

If you want to throw archaeological and scientific findings out the window and ignore evidence, it is your perogative.

I don't see a panel of experts stating it is impossible for the Thamud to have built the homes, any more than them stating it would have been impossible for Adam or Gabriel to have built them.

The archaeologists clearly state that the structures were built by the Nabataeans. Even you have admitted this. The Quran states they were built by the Thamud. The Quran and hadiths are wrong in this case.
Originally posted by quintessential

All in all Science and the Quran go hand in hand, i doubt your objectivity if you can skip over the big bag theory(one of the greatest scientific theories of our time) clearly stated in the Quran and choose a study of a hadith to come to a conclusion that "quran is not the word of Allah"

I would love to see where the Quran states anything about the Big Bang Theory.

I would also be curious why you would allude to it, since for all we know it could also not be true.

Originally posted by quintessential

You're not fooling any real muslims,not to sound preachy but we've been told of people like you. Ignore the obvious and stretch out the not so obvious to try and prove a point.

Please show me where I "ignore the obvious" and "stretch out" the "not so obvious".
Originally posted by quintessential


You can choose to believe whatever you want but please, enough with the grandiose proclamations. You, like the rest of us have limited knowledge.
Allah knows best.

I would suggest taking your own advice, my friend. I agree with you that Allah knows best.
Originally posted by quintessential


On the subject of the Quran vs Bible. Its not even an argument. The Quran is today as it was then. You know full well the bible has been added to and subtracted from countless times since its inception. Treaty of nicea aside its impossible to know whats what in the bible.

Aside from a few verses that were added, the Gospels for the most part are the same. There are very minor variations that for the most part have no effect on the text.

You are correct that the Quran has more manuscript evidence, but making a statement "the Quran is today as it was then" is also a grandiose proclamation. If you were to follow your own advice, you would have written "I believe the Quran is today as it was then".
Originally posted by quintessential


I do,like all muslims believe that there is an authentic bible somewhere out there brought to us by Jesus but it lost to mankind from all the tampering since.This is generally agreed upon historically.

It is "generally agreed upon historically" that Jesus have people "an authentic Bible"? Really? Please show me some non-Muslim scholarly sources stating such a thing.

Does even the Quran or hadiths state such a thing?
Originally posted by quintessential


 Books added and excluded for political gain and what not.

What "political gain"? You can read the books that were excluded easily. Most of them do not present anything different from what is in the Bible we have today. There are Gnostic Gospels that were definitely rejected. If you were to read them, you would easily discover why.
Originally posted by quintessential


Translation after translation through the ages. It not being in its original tongue alone is enough cause for concern.

Why is it a cause for concern?
Originally posted by quintessential


Still I read it as it exists for what truth still lies underneath.

And how do you decide what in it is that "still lies underneath" and what isn't?

For someone who criticizes others for speaking in absolutes, I am surprised by the many absolutes you use in your responses.
IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 24 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com