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NABA
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Quote NABA Replybullet Posted: 27 August 2013 at 7:19am
eternal means forever existing or having no end,how can we b eternal???I proved U whatever allegations U put,it is very difficult to repeat the logic to U,at one time U agree that Allah is one yet U believe in concept of trinity,at the same time U agree that Allah is eternal and then u say God dies??then I prove u the meaning of desolate,yet u R sticking at one point no matter how long we are going to discuss,I will remain with views and continously prove u wrong,u didn't respond about gospel of mark ch 16 v 17-18,if u say bible is inspired by God,then how come the definite mistakes in bible are pointed out,give me the link that scientific Muslim organization says Qur'an is wrong.Allah says in ch 39 v 41-truth is in front of u either accept it or reject it.Allah is way superior than human beings,he does not need to do what humans do,for eg if a create a car does that mean I had to drink petrol???similarly we R creations of Allah.
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 27 August 2013 at 5:24pm
Assalamu Alaikum, NABA.
Originally posted by NABA

eternal means forever existing or having no end,how can we b eternal???

When we die, will God not resurrect us and make us live forever either in heaven or in hell? Unlike God, we did not always exist. However, like Him, we will live forever. This of course does not mean we will ever be God or similar to Him.
Originally posted by NABA


I proved U whatever allegations U put,

No you didn't. I proved to you that the Quran makes false claims.
Originally posted by NABA


it is very difficult to repeat the logic to U,at one time U agree that Allah is one yet U believe in concept of trinity,

Yes. Trinity does not mean Allah is not one. Trinity means He is one and exists as three persons. His oneness is not compromised though. Do you believe Allah is incapable of being one and a trinity at the same time? Are you placing limits on Him?
Originally posted by NABA


at the same time U agree that Allah is eternal and then u say God dies??

Yes. Allah died as Jesus, and remained alive simultaneously as the Father and Holy Spirit. Do you believe it is not possible for Him to die and yet remain alive and eternal?
Originally posted by NABA


then I prove u the meaning of desolate,

You said that "desolate" means "never existed". You provided no evidence whatsoever to back up such a definition. I provided you both tafsirs and dictionary definitions that show it means a deserted place.

Originally posted by NABA

yet u R sticking at one point no matter how long we are going to discuss,

Yes, and unlike you, I back up my answers with evidence.
Originally posted by NABA


I will remain with views and continously prove u wrong,

I look forward to you trying to prove me wrong. Thus far, you have not presented any evidence to back up your assertions that states what you want it to say, and get frustrated with me for using evidence to back up my points.
Originally posted by NABA


u didn't respond about gospel of mark ch 16 v 17-18,

I did respond. I said it is an addition that was not in the original Scriptures. I also pointed out that most of the things described in these verses were done by people in the early church.
Originally posted by NABA

if u say bible is inspired by God,then how come the definite mistakes in bible are pointed out,

Which mistakes? Mark 16:17-18 is an addition, and not part of the original. Most Bibles have a footnote stating this.

Please present me any evidence you see of "definite mistakes" in the Bible? I have already presented two from the Quran... which you are unable to refute.
Originally posted by NABA


give me the link that scientific Muslim organization says Qur'an is wrong.

I don't need to. I gave you a link to a Muslim organization that states that the buildings carved out of stone at Al Hijr were built by the Nabataeans between the last 2 centuries of BC and the first 2 of AD, while the Quran erroneously states they were built by the Thamud before the time of Moses. I have also presented academic non-Muslim sources stating the same thing. You have not presented any academic sources refuting this.

I have presented academic sources showing that bodies of water that are salty and less salty do indeed mix, and there is no impassable barrier between them like the Quran states. You presented a Muslim source which quoted an oceanologist out of context, which he refuted in the interview that Rob Webb linked to.
Originally posted by NABA


Allah says in ch 39 v 41-truth is in front of u either accept it or reject it.

I agree. This is why I accept the Bible and reject parts of the Quran.
Originally posted by NABA


Allah is way superior than human beings,he does not need to do what humans do,for eg if a create a car does that mean I had to drink petrol???similarly we R creations of Allah.

Allah is superior to us all, and He does not need to do anything. He does not need a throne, yet Muslims and Christians believe He sits on one. He did not need to die on the cross, yet Christians believe He chose to do so.

Allah Akhbar! All praise and glory be to Allah the Father, Son and Holy Spirit! Blessed be His Name!


Edited by TG12345 - 27 August 2013 at 10:37pm
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Quote NABA Replybullet Posted: 28 August 2013 at 7:31am
U explain this to me!!!in bible in book of genesis ch 1 v 29-mentioned all fruits and seed bearing plants are edible for us,even a layman knows that there are several poisonous plants,so according to bible God doesn't know what is bad for beings,similarly in book of leveticus ch 12 v 1-5,it is mentioned that when a woman gives a birth to male she is unclean for 40 days,when she gives birth to female she is unclean for 80 days,it is illogical,what U claim doesn't make sense,because I still repeat the fact that 100 yrs from now archaeology will discover that the place in which naba stays was created by John,does that mean I never existed or I didn't have any home,similar is the case of thamud,U didn't mentioned about lithyanites who were also before nabaeteans,and yeah don't say that the verses above are additions,Allah says in Qur'an in ch 50 v 16-Allah knows man than man himself,he describes his closeness in this verse as if it is closer than its jugular vein.Allah says don't consume pork in ch 5 v 1,we all know pork is root of several diseases.
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 28 August 2013 at 8:15pm

Salaam Alaikum, NABA.

Originally posted by NABA

U explain this to me!!!in bible in book of genesis ch 1 v 29-mentioned all fruits and seed bearing plants are edible for us,even a layman knows that there are several poisonous plants,so according to bible God doesn't know what is bad for beings,

Have you actually read the Bible? If you had, you would know that Genesis 1 describes the world before Adam and Eve sinned. After they sinned, death and sin entered the world.

Romans 5:12 explains this.
12 
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

Before Adam sinned, all plants were good for human consumption. After he did, one of the things that God cursed him with was the weeds that would come up from the soil.

Genesis 3:17-20 explains that the ground became cursed because of Adam, and that he would have to work for his food, and it would produce thorns and thistles for him.

The Bible teaches that the world changed after Adam and Eve disobeyed God. No longer was everything good.

Now a question for you.

In 16:68, 69 the Quran records God as saying:

And your Lord inspired to the bee, "Take for yourself among the mountains, houses, and among the trees and [in] that which they construct.
Then eat from all the fruits and follow the ways of your Lord laid down [for you]." There emerges from their bellies a drink, varying in colors, in which there is healing for people. Indeed in that is a sign for a people who give thought.

http://quran.com/16

The "drink" is honey, and it is supposed to be a cure when it is drank. Was the Quran's author at all aware of the fact that bees can sometimes produce honey that can be poisonous and even deadly to humans?

Rhododendron is a plant that is toxic, and that bees will pollinate, because it doesn't harm them. However, when people drink or eat the honey produced by these bees, they can fall very sick.

http://www.rhodyman.net/rhodytox.html

2. Name of Acute Disease: Honey Intoxication

Honey intoxication is caused by the consumption of honey produced from the nectar of rhododendrons. The grayanotoxins cause the intoxication. The specific grayanotoxins vary with the plant species. These compounds are diterpenes, polyhydroxylated cyclic hydrocarbons that do not contain nitrogen. Other names associated with the disease is rhododendron poisoning, mad honey intoxication or grayanotoxin poisoning.

People who have eaten honey produced by bees that have eaten this plant have fallen extremely sick.

The page below contains a list of plants that are pollinated by bees, and which cause them to produce honey that is toxic and sometimes fatal as a "drink" to humans.

http://healthmad.com/nutrition/honey-are-you-toxic

Genesis 1 describes the earth as it was before the fall. Unless you can prove me wrong, 16:68,69 gives instructions to people living both today and during Muhammad's time.

It tells them that honey is a drink that will provide healing for us. That is an extremely irresponsible statement, and while it is sometimes true, at other times it is false. People who drink or eat honey produced by bees that have pollinated the Andromeda plant, for another example, may wind up dead, not cured.

Adromeda (Bog rosemary), has a substance called grayanotoxin which cause humans, who eat honey made from its nectar, to become paralyzed in their limbs and then the diaphragm, constricting breathing, which leads to death.


Read more: http://healthmad.com/nutrition/honey-are-you-toxic/#ixzz2dK6iO4Q5

 

Originally posted by NABA


similarly in book of leveticus ch 12 v 1-5,it is mentioned that when a woman gives a birth to male she is unclean for 40 days,when she gives birth to female she is unclean for 80 days,it is illogical,

Keep in mind that this was the Old Testament law that was given to Jews, and to no one else. It isn’t any more “illogical” than a hadith that states that angels will not enter a house where there is a dog or a picture.

(4) Narrated Ibn Abbas: Abu Talha, a companion of Allah's Apostle and one of those who fought at Badr together with Allah's Apostle told me that Allah's Apostle said. "angels do not enter a house in which there is a dog or a picture" He meant the images of creatures that have souls.  (Book #59, Hadith #338)

http://searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=angel+dog&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all

 

This doesn’t make any sense either, but I’m not criticizing it because there is no way to prove or disprove it, or even explain it logically. Likewise with the uncleanliness of the woman after the birth of a male and female child.

Originally posted by NABA

what U claim doesn't make sense,because I still repeat the fact that 100 yrs from now archaeology will discover that the place in which naba stays was created by John,does that mean I never existed or I didn't have any home,

No, it doesn’t mean that you never existed or that you didn’t have a home. But if someone pointed to John’s house that was built over where your house used to be and said “this is the house NABA built”, that would be false. Don’t you see this? The Quran points to houses that were carved out of rock by the Nabataeans and says they were carved out of rock by the Thamud.

Originally posted by NABA

similar is the case of thamud,

See above.

Originally posted by NABA

U didn't mentioned about lithyanites who were also before nabaeteans,

Why would I mention them? Neither they or the Thamud carved the houses from rock that are described in the Quran. The Nabataeans did.

Originally posted by NABA

and yeah don't say that the verses above are additions,

Which verses?

Originally posted by NABA

Allah says in Qur'an in ch 50 v 16-Allah knows man than man himself,he describes his closeness in this verse as if it is closer than its jugular vein.

Psalm 139:1-6 states that God knows us better than we know ourselves. Before we say something, He knows what we are going to say. His knowledge is so much past ours.

 

Psalm 139:1-6

You have searched me, Lord,
    and you know me.
You know when I sit and when I rise;
    you perceive my thoughts from afar.
You discern my going out and my lying down;
    you are familiar with all my ways.
Before a word is on my tongue
    you, Lord, know it completely.
You hem me in behind and before,
    and you lay your hand upon me.
Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
    too lofty for me to attain.

 

Originally posted by NABA

Allah says don't consume pork in ch 5 v 1,we all know pork is root of several diseases.

God made pork- as well as shellfish and many other things- prohibited to the Israelites. There are no more dietary restrictions on Christians today.

 

Also, pork is not any more harmful than other meats. It depends on what part is eaten, how it is cooked, etc.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/411907-what-are-the-health-benefits-of-pork-vs-poultry/

 



Edited by TG12345 - 28 August 2013 at 8:37pm
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Quote NABA Replybullet Posted: 29 August 2013 at 7:33am
y don't U quote the truth that honey also acts as a medicine,in ulcers,gastric disturbances etc.the disease U R quoting is very rare,U R the first person to show me that disease,y do U quote hadiths,because some hadiths are moderated we R talking about only Qur'an n bible,U claim bible is the word of god and I claim Qur'an is and it is.
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 29 August 2013 at 7:58am
Originally posted by NABA

y don't U quote the truth that honey also acts as a medicine,in ulcers,gastric disturbances etc.

That is true. It is also true that eating honey can kill you. It can be a healing drink, it can also kill you.
Originally posted by NABA


 the disease U R quoting is very rare,U R the first person to show me that disease,

It's actually not a disease, it is what happens when bees eat some plants... their honey will make people very sick and may even kill them. It has happened in history, and it happens now.

Why didn't the Quran's author think of this when he told people that honey is a drink that is good for healing?

If someone feeling sick were to drink honey made from a bee that collected from the Andromeda plant, he or she would die, instead of being healed.

Originally posted by NABA


y do U quote hadiths,because some hadiths are moderated

I am quoting only the hadiths from Bukhari and Muslim. If they are not sahih, please show me.

Originally posted by NABA


 we R talking about only Qur'an n bible,U claim bible is the word of god and I claim Qur'an is and it is.

I quote the hadiths because for Muslims, they are important and you cannot be a Muslim and ignore them. Do you not believe that Muhammad's teachings came from God? Are you not called to obey both God and His messenger?

I have quoted the Quran regarding the buildings mistakenly attributed to the Thamud, regarding its mistake on a forbidden barrier between bodies of water, and now regarding its carelessness in saying that honey is a drink that is healing to some people... while not mentioning that it can also kill.
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Quote NABA Replybullet Posted: 29 August 2013 at 9:52am
how can U say that I m a Qur'an only Muslim.prophet said convey the message of Islam I m doing,prophet said b good to ur parents I m doing,prophet said don't do backbiting I m following this,prophet said in hadeeths no 6114-the real man is one who is able to control his anger,I m following this.Alhamdullilah all this I m doing because of Allah,because not even a leaf can fall without permission of Allah(ch 6 v 59).now coming to the point read the verse carefully eat from the fruits U mentioned then U talk about plants and observe carefully what Allah says in the end this is the sign of people who give thought,means Allah wants to apply our wisdom means we should enquiry before doing anything,Allah says in ch 7 v 31-Allah says eat up all good things but don't commit excess and Allah hate the wasters.now I explain to U for eg cabbage is not forbidden,but a wise man will always wash then eat,cabbage is good but cabbage at shop is not always good sometimes it is sprayed with pesticides or contain worms so if U think logically what is "good",good means free from bad things,means a cabbage with pesticide is harmful for us,so we purify and then eat.moreover how do U know that lithyanites had not created structures for eg 100 years from now a new team will claim structures were made by lithyanites then????ur claim is unique,y don't u accept many organisations say that structure may b created by nabaeteans but they always say about Qur'an means they give importance to Qur'an.similarly Allah says u can consume meat,it doesn't mean I will consume rotten meat,I will check whether it is fresh or not,so Allah urges us to apply our wisdom that he has provided.i believe Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)is the best man,I feel satisfied when I propagate Islam to others because this was his commandment,its a fact some hadiths are moderated so I believe whatever actions I can do I will do,there are many more things I do what prophet said which is impossible for me to tell u.otherwise I will need lot of posts.
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 29 August 2013 at 1:22pm
Originally posted by NABA

how can U say that I m a Qur'an only Muslim.

You seem to not want to discuss the hadiths, so I was wondering. I didn't say that you are a Quran only Muslim, I asked if you are one.
Originally posted by NABA


prophet said convey the message of Islam I m doing,prophet said b good to ur parents I m doing,prophet said don't do backbiting I m following this,prophet said in hadeeths no 6114-the real man is one who is able to control his anger,I m following this.

Glad to hear you are living out the good things in your faith.
Originally posted by NABA


Alhamdullilah all this I m doing because of Allah,because not even a leaf can fall without permission of Allah(ch 6 v 59).

We agree on this also, God controls everything.
Originally posted by NABA


now coming to the point read the verse carefully eat from the fruits U mentioned then U talk about plants and observe carefully what Allah says in the end this is the sign of people who give thought,means Allah wants to apply our wisdom means we should enquiry before doing anything,

No, according to the tafsirs this means that we should reflect on the facts He listed and recognize His greatness, not "apply our own wisdom".


(Then eat of all fruits) from all types of fruits, (and follow the ways of your Lord, made smooth (for thee)) made tractable for you. (There cometh forth from their bellies) from the bellies of bees (a drink diverse of hues) red, yellow and white, (wherein) in honey there (is healing for mankind) from illness; it is also said that this means: there is in the Qur'an healing for mankind. (Lo! Herein) in that which I have mentioned there (is indeed a portent) a sign and lesson (for people who reflect) on what I have created.

http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=16&tAyahNo=69&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2


Then eat from every [kind of] fruit, and follow, enter, the ways of your Lord, [follow] His paths in seeking pastures, [ways] made easily accessible’ (dhululan is the plural of dhalūl, and is a circumstantial qualifier referring to al-subul, ‘the ways’, in other words, [those paths] disposed for you, such that they pose no difficulty for you, even if it should be rough [terrain], and [such that] you would not lose your way when returning therefrom, even if it be far away; it [dhululan] is also said to be [a circumstantial qualifier] referring to the person of [the pronominal suffix of] fa’slukī, ‘you follow’, meaning [in this case] [follow those paths] in compliance with what is required of you). There comes forth from their bellies a drink, namely, honey, of diverse hues, wherein is a cure for mankind, from [all] ailments; it is also said [that it means that it is a cure only] for some [ailments], as indicated by the indefinite [noun] shifā’un, ‘a cure’; or [that it is a cure] for all [ailments] when supplemented with some other [remedy]; or without these [other remedies] but with the resolve (niyya) [to get better]. The Prophet (s) used to prescribe it for anyone suffering from stomach pains, as reported by the two Shaykhs [Bukhārī and Muslim]. Surely in that there is a sign for a people who reflect, upon God’s handiwork, exalted be He.

http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=16&tAyahNo=69&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2


(There is indeed a sign in that for people who reflect.) meaning in the fact that Allah inspires this weak little creature to travel through the vast fields and feed from every kind of fruit, then gather it for wax and honey, which are some of the best things, in this is a sign for people who think about the might and power of the bee's Creator Who causes all of this to happen. From this they learn that He is the Initiator, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise, the All-Knowing, the Most Generous, the Most Merciful.
http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2964&Itemid=71

Originally posted by NABA


Allah says in ch 7 v 31-Allah says eat up all good things but don't commit excess and Allah hate the wasters.

True, but this isn't what we are discussing. A person who eats honey from a bee that collected pollen from toxic fruit will get sick regardless of how much he or she eats.
Originally posted by NABA


now I explain to U for eg cabbage is not forbidden,but a wise man will always wash then eat,cabbage is good but cabbage at shop is not always good sometimes it is sprayed with pesticides or contain worms so if U think logically what is "good",good means free from bad things,means a cabbage with pesticide is harmful for us,so we purify and then eat.

The difference is that pesticides are made by people, and worms are not part of the cabbage to begin with. Also, the dirt on them is not part of the plant. Bees who make honey from the Andromeda fruits are doing exactly what the Quran tells them to do, and in eating their honey, people are doing something that God allegedly said there is healing. The problem, of course, is that they get sick and/or die later.
Originally posted by NABA


moreover how do U know that lithyanites had not created structures for eg 100 years from now a new team will claim structures were made by lithyanites then????

The buildings were dated to the time of the Nabataeans. If you can show me any evidence from archaeologists that they were built by the Thamud or Lihyanites, please show me.
Originally posted by NABA


ur claim is unique,y don't u accept many organisations say that structure may b created by nabaeteans but they always say about Qur'an means they give importance to Qur'an.

Actually, they say that the structures were created by the Nabataeans, and they say when they were created. They don't say "the Quran is wrong" but they also don't say that these structures were built by the Thamud... like the Quran mistakenly claims.
Originally posted by NABA


similarly Allah says u can consume meat,it doesn't mean I will consume rotten meat,I will check whether it is fresh or not,so Allah urges us to apply our wisdom that he has provided.

Of course you shouldn't consume rotten meat, you should consume it when it is fresh. You also shouldn't consume rotten honey, it may even ferment. The difference is that fresh meat from a healthy halal land animal is always good, whereas fresh honey from a healthy bee may or may not end up treating you... in fact, it can sometimes kill you.
Originally posted by NABA


i believe Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)is the best man,I feel satisfied when I propagate Islam to others because this was his commandment,its a fact some hadiths are moderated so I believe whatever actions I can do I will do,there are many more things I do what prophet said which is impossible for me to tell u.otherwise I will need lot of posts.

Feel free to write all you want. I believe Muhammad was a sincere person who believed he was doing good in the world and who believed in God, but he was definitely not a prophet of God. In addition to the evidence I have shown you already to demonstrate this, I can show you more.

Come to Jesus, who is God and who died on the cross for you and for me and for Muhammad and everyone else in history.


Edited by TG12345 - 29 August 2013 at 1:25pm
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