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Message Icon Topic: Error in Quran and hadiths about Thamud Post Reply Post New Topic
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TG12345
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 11 August 2013 at 2:30pm
Originally posted by NABA

Surah An Nisa ch 4 v 171-Allah strictly forbids trinity and he says don't commit excessiveness in religion and believe that Allah is one,I have read the article of majid khan in pasthorizons.com he never mentioned about nabaeteans,in fact he said it is difficult to interpret the signs.Jesus christ(pbuh)condemns divinity in book of John ch 19 v 16-17.

Assalamu Alaikum, NABA.

I went on pasthorizons.com and read his article. For those who are interested, it can be read on this url: http://www.pasthorizonspr.com/index.php/archives/11/2011/art-rocks-in-saudi-arabia

As you will notice, the article is not written about buildings or houses or tombs, but about rock art- petroglyphs. The photos and article describes pictures of animals that were carved into the rocks, as well as inscriptions. The oldest artifacts found were of the Thamud... and what were they? They were were inscriptions carved into the rock as well as carvings of camels. If you visit the site, you will see various photos of the findings.

None of them are of the tombs at Al Hijr or Petra.

Majeed Khan did not mention the Nabateans in his article, because he was not writing about the buildings carved into rocks at Al Hijr and Petra but about inscriptions and pictures of animals carved into the rocks. On the other site I listed (http://saudi-archaeology.com/sites/madain-saleh/), he and the other authors explicitly stated that Madain Saleh, or Al Hijr, was built by the Nabataeans... not the Thamud.

There is absolutely nothing mentioned in his article about the Thamud carving homes out of rocks, like the Quran alleges, homes which Muhammad claimed he saw and told his men to not enter.


Regarding 4:171, I have yet to see how it explains the Trinity:

O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.

Why should Christians not say "three"? Even one of your prophets said "three".

But they hamstrung her, so he said, "Enjoy yourselves in your homes for three days. That is a promise not to be denied."


If saying "three" means that one is saying the Trinity is true, it would mean that Salih was also a Trinitarian. Using 4:171 to attack or for that matter even describe the Trinity makes no sense, unless you explain what the author meant by writing "three".

John 19:16,17 does not say anything about Jesus denying His divinity. It describes Him being crucified.

John 19:16,17

So he delivered him over to them to be crucified.
So they took Jesus,
17 and he went out, bearing his own cross, to the place called The Place of a Skull, which in Aramaic is called Golgotha


Have you actually read the Bible? It's a good idea to do that before telling a Christian what is written in it. I have taken the time to read the entire Quran, and while I do not know it as well as you do, I will at least read passages before telling you what I believe they say.

I recommend reading the Bible. It contains God's message for humanity.
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Quote NABA Replybullet Posted: 12 August 2013 at 7:33am
I apologize by mistake i quote that in section of John,it was from Mathews.actually i have group of friends who are christians and we exchange the verses of Qur'an n bible between us.extremely sorry for doing this.in fact i request U to teach what's there in your scriptures.the topic U started nobody can actually prove what was the exact truth,because that place was destroyed and there R chances of complete new civilisation here.since i m a Muslim i believe what Allah says.in that verse(ch 4 v 171)Allah is warning those who believe in concept of trinity of God.in fact Allah clearly says in Surah Al Maidah ch 5 v 72-they are doing a sin those who regard Jesus(pbuh) as God.i m reading Bible but i m not perfect in quoting verses from them,please pardon me from that.
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 12 August 2013 at 8:22am
Originally posted by NABA

I apologize by mistake i quote that in section of John,it was from Mathews.actually i have group of friends who are christians and we exchange the verses of Qur'an n bible between us.extremely sorry for doing this.in fact i request U to teach what's there in your scriptures.the topic U started nobody can actually prove what was the exact truth,because that place was destroyed and there R chances of complete new civilisation here.since i m a Muslim i believe what Allah says.in that verse(ch 4 v 171)Allah is warning those who believe in concept of trinity of God.in fact Allah clearly says in Surah Al Maidah ch 5 v 72-they are doing a sin those who regard Jesus(pbuh) as God.i m reading Bible but i m not perfect in quoting verses from them,please pardon me from that.

Assalamu Alaikum, NABA.

There is no need to be extremely sorry. We all make mistakes, the only One who doesn't is Allah, our Creator and Saviour and Guide. I have made mistakes and wrong assumptions about the Quran and hadiths, just ask islamispeace Smile. We learn by making mistakes. When we make one, we admit it, and move on. I'm certainly not annoyed or angry with you, or think lesser of you because you made a mistake. We are all human.

Regarding Matthew 19:16,17; in it Jesus does not deny He is God. He was asked about what food deeds must be done to have eternal life, He responded by saying there is only one who is good, and telling the man to keep the commandments and then follow Him. Sadly, the man was more attached to his riches, and chose not to follow Christ.

This is one of my favourite passages, especially verses 29 and 30 when Jesus talks about those who leave things behind to follow Him, being rewarded in the next life.

It is a beautiful passage, and certainly does not deny the divinity of Jesus Christ.

Matthew 19:16-30

16 And behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments. 18 He said to him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man said to him, “All these I have kept. What do I still lack?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

23 And Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” 26 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” 27 Then Peter said in reply, “See, we have left everything and followed you. What then will we have?” 28 Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world,b]">[b] when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name's sake, will receive a hundredfoldc]">[c] and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.

I don't understand how 4:171 mentions the Trinity by saying "three". Many people say "three", including Salih.

5:72 accurately describes what Christians believe, that Jesus is God, even if it mistakenly condemns us for believing this truth.

Do you know what 5:73 is about? The tafsir commentators wrote that this verse is about the Trinity, and I have heard other Muslims say this. Is this true?


Regarding the topic I originally started, as I have demonstrated, history shows us that the buildings that are mentioned in the Quran at Al Hijr, as well as those that Muhammad and his men passed by, were not built by the Thamud, but by the Nabataeans. The Thamud left inscriptions and carvings of camels. The Nabataeans left tombs... which the Quran's author mistakenly described as houses and attributed them to being the creation of someone else.

I don't mean to be offensive, but to continue to believe the Quran's account and Muhammad's hadiths, it is necessary to accept something that is not true.

Allah Akhbar!
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Quote NABA Replybullet Posted: 13 August 2013 at 7:35am
ch 5 v 73 is about trinity,Allah says those who say this R d contenders of punishment,there is clear message in that verse that there is no god but Allah.moreover I still believe that structures were made by thamud because they were destroyed by calamity and after that structures were made by nabaeteans.
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 13 August 2013 at 11:58pm
Originally posted by NABA

ch 5 v 73 is about trinity,Allah says those who say this R d contenders of punishment,there is clear message in that verse that there is no god but Allah.

Assalamu Alaikum, NABA.

Here is the verse:

They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment.

The Trinity doctrine does not teach that God is the third of three. The Trinity doctrine teaches that one God exists as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. We believe the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Not three different gods, but one God.

We do not believe God is the third of three. We believe He is one, and exists as three persons. You can say He is three of three, which would equal one. But not "the third of three".

Originally posted by NABA


moreover I still believe that structures were made by thamud because they were destroyed by calamity and after that structures were made by nabaeteans.

If the structures made by the Thamud were destroyed by calamity and after that new structures were built by the Nabataeans, the Quran and Muhammad were wrong in referring to Nabataean structures as the homes of the Thamud.

The mistake still remains.

God is great and loving and wise. He died on the cross for you as Jesus Christ, the Son. He offers you and everyone else on the planet eternal life if you believe in Him.


Edited by TG12345 - 14 August 2013 at 11:04am
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Quote NABA Replybullet Posted: 14 August 2013 at 7:25am

Allah knows everything it was will of Allah that he narrated story of Thamud to teach us the lesson,because The people of Thamud were so cruel that they slaughtered the sign of Allah I.e the she camel and Allah destroyed them this is the lesson that we get that we should not reject signs of Allah,moreover when U say God dies U R committing a big mistake because God is eternal he is free from all diseases,in fact Allah never sleeps(ch 2 v 255 of Al Qur'an)moreover he is one,he doesn't need to take any form to improve mankind,this life is not eternal,not beautiful,U know that there R so many problems around the world,Allah created life n death to test us(ch 67 v 2),Allah regards life as play and amusement in ch 6 v 32.Allah is one and we should not ascribe humanly adjectives to Allah.

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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 14 August 2013 at 11:03am
Originally posted by NABA

Allah knows everything

Indeed, He does.

Originally posted by NABA

it was will of Allah that he narrated story of Thamud to teach us the lesson,because The people of Thamud were so cruel that they slaughtered the sign of Allah I.e the she camel and Allah destroyed them this is the lesson that we get that we should not reject signs of Allah,

That is a good lesson and a well-told story, but unfortunately, the story is not true.

The Thamud did not carve buildings out of rock at Al Hijr. The Nabataeans did. The author of the Quran, as well as Muhammad, made a mistake in that regard. This is one of the proofs that the Quran was not written by God, and that God did not inspire Muhammad.

Originally posted by NABA


moreover when U say God dies U R committing a big mistake because God is eternal

As I showed, God the Son was dead and God the Father and Holy Spirit was not. Even when He was dead, Jesus was in the earth and speaking to the spirits of the deceased.

So God is eternal- the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Originally posted by NABA

he is free from all diseases,

He is, but He chose to expose Himself to hardships for us.

Originally posted by NABA

in fact Allah never sleeps(ch 2 v 255 of Al Qur'an)moreover he is one,

Christians also believe God is one.

Originally posted by NABA

he doesn't need to take any form to improve mankind,

He doesn't need to, but He chose to.

Originally posted by NABA

this life is not eternal,not beautiful,U know that there R so many problems around the world,

Yes. In Matthew 25:31-49, Allah tells His followers that what they do in response to the suffering and oppressed, they do for Him.

Originally posted by NABA

Allah created life n death to test us(ch 67 v 2),Allah regards life as play and amusement in ch 6 v 32.Allah is one

Yes.

Originally posted by NABA

and we should not ascribe humanly adjectives to Allah.

Except those that He ascribed to Himself.
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Quote NABA Replybullet Posted: 15 August 2013 at 7:23am
If U pose question on Quran can U clear this query to me regarding bible,in book of genesis ch 1 v 3 n 5-it is said that light was created on first day but in verses 14-19-sun n moon were created on fourth day,how it is possible that cause of light comes after light??,moreover brother I will stick to my point that thamud carve the buildings because there R 100% chances that since Allah destroyed their civilization it was replaced by new one,n y U believe in certain researches,because many years back it was believed that moon has its own light but few 200 years back it was discovered that moon reflects the light of sun but Allah mentioned this fact 1400 years ago in Qur'an in ch 25 v 61,and regarding hardships,as I said there is no word hard for Allah,Allah in ch 85 v 16 says Allah do what he intends.u can't judge Allah,there is nothing like him(ch 112 v 4),u just had to have full faith in him and he give u results.
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