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TG12345
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 06 August 2013 at 6:18pm
Originally posted by NABA

in the book of oceanography Davis pg 92-93-It is been found that in estuaries there is a barrier between salt and sweet water,the point which distinguish fresh water from salt water is the pycnoclinic zone with its discontinuity,different temperature and this is also known as zone of seperation.truly Allah says Qur'an is for those who understand(ch 13 v 3-4)

Assalamu Alaikum, NABA.

Here is some information about estuaries.

http://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/kits/estuaries/estuaries05_circulation.html

There are 4 types of estuaries- salt wedge, fjord, vertically mixed, and fresh water. The least amount of mixing happens in the "salt wedge".

Salt-wedge estuaries are the most stratified, or least mixed, of all estuaries (Molles, 2002; Ross, 1995). They are also called highly stratified estuaries. Salt-wedge estuaries occur when a rapidly flowing river discharges into the ocean where tidal currents are weak. The force of the river pushing fresh water out to sea rather than tidal currents transporting seawater upstream determines the water circulation in these estuaries. As fresh water is less dense than saltwater, it floats above the seawater. A sharp boundary is created between the water masses, with fresh water floating on top and a wedge of saltwater on the bottom. Some mixing does occur at the boundary between the two water masses, but it is generally slight. The location of the wedge varies with the weather and tidal conditions. Examples of salt-wedge estuaries are the Columbia River in Washington and Oregon, the Hudson River in New York, and the Mississippi River in Louisiana.

In the animation below, the blue-colored fresh water flows from the river on the right-hand side of the image over a green-colored wedge of salty seawater as it moves out toward the ocean on the left-hand side of the image.

http://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/kits/estuaries/media/supp_estuar05a_wedge.html

So we see that mixing does happen at all times, even if it is at a minimal level.

Let's examine the Quran verses again.

25:53

And it is He Who has let free the two seas (kinds of water)*, one palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter, and He has set a barrier and a complete partition between them.

 

55:19,20

He released the two seas, meeting [side by side];

Between them is a barrier [so] neither of them transgresses.


If 25:53 and 55:19,20 are descriptions of estuaries, it means that the "complete partition" that God allegedly set between these 2 bodies of water is not that complete at all, and that His barrier is inefficient, since although it was built to ensure that "neither of them transgresses", they certainly do.

It would imply that according to the Quran, God is incapable of building effective partitions and barriers, and that the water disobeys Him and is able to get past them.
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 06 August 2013 at 6:21pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by TG12345

Where in the world are there two bodies of water that meet, one being salty and one being sweet, but between which is a barrier that is “forbidden” (according to CorpusQuran, that is the word, not “complete”) to be passed?

A footnote in Yusuf Ali's translation implies that the barrier is metaphorical, not physical.  The point is that fresh and salt water are constantly mingling (where the rivers flow into the ocean), so one might expect that over time they would have completely mixed; yet Allah has magically kept them distinct.  (Of course we now know that no magic is involved.)


Yet the barrier is definitely not "complete" and it does not stop the water from "transgressing". Mixing is minimized, but not stopped completely.
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 06 August 2013 at 6:22pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by NABA

in the book of oceanography Davis pg 92-93-It is been found that in estuaries there is a barrier between salt and sweet water,the point which distinguish fresh water from salt water is the pycnoclinic zone with its discontinuity,different temperature and this is also known as zone of seperation.truly Allah says Qur'an is for those who understand(ch 13 v 3-4)

Greetings NABA,

From when I studied... I did not learn of any separation of salt water from fresh water.  The point where they come together and mix is known as brackish water.

Salaam,
Caringheart

There is separation, but it is not complete as the Quran states, and salty and fresh water does indeed "transgress".
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 06 August 2013 at 7:28pm
Anyway, the separation is only temporary.  Ultimately, it all mixes.  It just takes a little time, but there is no barrier.
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 06 August 2013 at 7:37pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Anyway, the separation is only temporary.  Ultimately, it all mixes.  It just takes a little time, but there is no barrier.

Or if we want to call the separation a barrier, it is in no way "complete", and it doesn't prevent the waters from "transgressing".
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Quote nothing Replybullet Posted: 08 August 2013 at 6:47pm
Originally posted by TG12345

Assalamu Alaikum,

I was wondering if Muslims could explain what these 2 verses from the Quran are referring to.

25:53

And it is He Who has let free the two seas (kinds of water)*, one palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter, and He has set a barrier and a complete partition between them.

 

55:19,20

He released the two seas, meeting [side by side];

Between them is a barrier [so] neither of them transgresses.

 

*The words in brackets are not in the Quran but is the translator’s insertion, as can be seen from http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=25&verse=53


Where in the world are there two bodies of water that meet, one being salty and one being sweet, but between which is a barrier that is “forbidden” (according to CorpusQuran, that is the word, not “complete”) to be passed?


Shukran wa Allahma3k

I could not see anything else other than a place between this life and the next life there is a place mentioned as Barzakh, a Partition. Also humans and Jinns are always together but living in different dimensions, together but we don't mix as there is partitian between us.

We took the Children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam). (10:90)

Behold, Moses said to his attendant, "I will not give up until I reach the junction of the two seas or (until) I spend years and years in travel (18:60)

Until, when death comes to one of them, he says: "O my Lord! send me back (to life),- (23:99)
In order that I may work righteousness in the things I neglected." - "By no means! It is but a word he says."- Before them is a Partition till the Day they are raised up (23:100)

He created man from sounding clay like unto pottery,
And He created Jinns from fire free of smoke
Lord of the two Easts and Lord of the two Wests:
He has let free the two bodies of flowing water, meeting together:
Between them is a Barrier which they do not transgress:
(55:14-20)
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 08 August 2013 at 9:09pm
Originally posted by nothing

Originally posted by TG12345

Assalamu Alaikum,

I was wondering if Muslims could explain what these 2 verses from the Quran are referring to.

25:53

And it is He Who has let free the two seas (kinds of water)*, one palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter, and He has set a barrier and a complete partition between them.

 

55:19,20

He released the two seas, meeting [side by side];

Between them is a barrier [so] neither of them transgresses.

 

*The words in brackets are not in the Quran but is the translator’s insertion, as can be seen from http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=25&verse=53


Where in the world are there two bodies of water that meet, one being salty and one being sweet, but between which is a barrier that is “forbidden” (according to CorpusQuran, that is the word, not “complete”) to be passed?


Shukran wa Allahma3k

I could not see anything else other than a place between this life and the next life there is a place mentioned as Barzakh, a Partition. Also humans and Jinns are always together but living in different dimensions, together but we don't mix as there is partitian between us.

We took the Children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam). (10:90)

Behold, Moses said to his attendant, "I will not give up until I reach the junction of the two seas or (until) I spend years and years in travel (18:60)

Until, when death comes to one of them, he says: "O my Lord! send me back (to life),- (23:99)
In order that I may work righteousness in the things I neglected." - "By no means! It is but a word he says."- Before them is a Partition till the Day they are raised up (23:100)

He created man from sounding clay like unto pottery,
And He created Jinns from fire free of smoke
Lord of the two Easts and Lord of the two Wests:
He has let free the two bodies of flowing water, meeting together:
Between them is a Barrier which they do not transgress:
(55:14-20)

Assalamu Alaikum, nothing. This is quite an interesting interpretation of the verses, and the first time I have heard it. I read tafsirs Al Jalalayn, Ibn Abbas and Ibn Qathir, and they all refer to bodies of water that meet but are separated by a barrier that they don't transgress.

25:53

Tafsir Al Jalalayn

And He it is Who merged the two seas: letting them [flow] one adjacent to the other: this one palatable, sweet, and the other saltish, bitter; and He set between the two an isthmus, so that the one does not mix with the other, and a forbidding ban, a shield that prevents the two from becoming mixed.
http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=25&tAyahNo=53&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

Tafsir Ibn Abbas

(And He it is Who hath given independence to the two seas (though they meet); one palatable, sweet, and the other saltish, bitter; and hath set a bar) a barrier between the sweet and the salty (and a forbidding ban between them) preventing either one from transgressing against the other, such as to make the taste of either of them change.

http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=25&tAyahNo=53&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

Tafsir Ibn Qathir

(And it is He Who has let free the two seas, this is palatable and sweet, and that is salty and bitter;) means, He has created the two kinds of water, sweet and salty. The sweet water is like that in rivers, springs and wells, which is fresh, sweet, palatable water. This was the view of Ibn Jurayj and of Ibn Jarir, and this is the meaning without a doubt, for nowhere in creation is there a sea which is fresh and sweet. Allah has told us about reality so that His servants may realize His blessings to them and give thanks to Him. The sweet water is that which flows amidst people. Allah has portioned it out among His creatures according to their needs; rivers and springs in every land, according to what they need for themselves and their lands.

﴿وَهَـذَا مِلْحٌ أُجَاجٌ﴾

(and that is salty and bitter;) meaning that it is salty, bitter and not easy to swallow. This is like the seas that are known in the east and the west, the Atlantic Ocean and the Straits that lead to it, the Red Sea, the Arabian Sea, the Persian Gulf, the China Sea, the Indian Ocean, the Mediterranean Sea, the Black Sea and so on, all the seas that are stable and do not flow, but they swell and surge in the winter and when the winds are strong, and they have tides that ebb and flow. At the beginning of each month the tides ebb and flood, and when the month starts to wane they retreat until they go back to where they started. When the crescent of the following month appears, the tide begins to ebb again until the fourteenth of the month, then it decreases. Allah, may He be glorified, the One Whose power is absolute, has set these laws in motion, so all of these seas are stationary, and He has made their water salty lest the air turn putrid because of them and the whole earth turn rotten as a result, and lest the earth spoil because of the animals dying on it. Because its water is salty, its air is healthy and its dead are good (to eat), hence when the Messenger of Allah was asked whether sea water can be used for Wudu', he said:

«هُوَ الطَّهُورُ مَاؤُهُ، الْحِلُّ مَيْتَتُه»

(Its water is pure and its dead are lawful.) This was recorded by Malik, Ash-Shafi`i and Ahmad, and by the scholars of Sunan with a good ﴿Jayyid﴾ chain of narration.

﴿وَجَعَلَ بَيْنَهُمَا بَرْزَخاً وَحِجْراً﴾

(and He has set a barrier and a complete partition between them. ) meaning, between the sweet water and the saltwater.

﴿بَرْزَخاً﴾

(a barrier) means a partition, which is dry land.

﴿وَحِجْراً مَّحْجُوراً﴾

(and a complete partition) means, a barrier, to prevent one of them from reaching the other. This is like the Ayat:

﴿مَرَجَ الْبَحْرَيْنِ يَلْتَقِيَانِ - بَيْنَهُمَا بَرْزَخٌ لاَّ يَبْغِيَانِ فَبِأَىِّ ءَالاءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ ﴾

(He has let loose the two seas meeting together. Between them is a barrier which none of them can transgress. Then which of the blessings of your Lord will you both deny) (55:19-21)

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2389&Itemid=80


Ibn Qathir refers to the "barrier" as dry land, whereas Al Jalalayn and Ibn Abbas don't specify. We know that there is no barrier in water that completely prevents salt and sweet water from mixing. We also know that if there is land separating salty and sweet water, then the partition is complete but it obviously means they don't meet each other. 

The tafsirs of 55:19, 20 also talk about bodies of water, and not about life and death, or people or jinns.


However, of course, the tafsir commentators could be all wrong. Let's look at the examples you gave to suggest that 55:19,20 and 25:53 could be talking about spiritual issues, not natural phenomena.

10:90 mentions the Pharaoh and his men about to be drowned in the Sea after pursuing the Israelites. There isn't any reference to anything but people literally being about to be drowned for oppressing God's people.


If we read chapter 18, we will see that 18:60 is a reference to the Sea, not a spiritual junction.

18:60-63

And [mention] when Moses said to his servant, "I will not cease [traveling] until I reach the junction of the two seas or continue for a long period."


But when they reached the junction between them, they forgot their fish, and it took its course into the sea, slipping away.


So when they had passed beyond it, [Moses] said to his boy, "Bring us our morning meal. We have certainly suffered in this, our journey, [much] fatigue."


He said, "Did you see when we retired to the rock? Indeed, I forgot [there] the fish. And none made me forget it except Satan - that I should mention it. And it took its course into the sea amazingly".

http://quran.com/18

Moses and his boy servant came to the junction of the seas, forgot their fish, and lost it. Satan was evidently the cause.
An interesting story, but there is nothing to suggest that the junction is anything but a physical description.

23:99,100 does indeed mention a spiritual junction, but there is no mention of any bodies of water or sea.

Verses 55:1-25 describe God's creation- from man, to the sun and the moon, to the stars, trees, heaven, earth, grain, jinns, sunrises, sunsets, the 2 seas, the coral and pearl found in both of them, and ships. The phrase "So which of these favors of the Lord would you deny?" occurs again and again. The verses all describe the things that He made, His beautiful and wondrous creation. There is no mention of anything about the barrier between life and death, and not surprisingly, the tafsir scholars make no such mention either.

25:53, when read in context, also describes physical realities of God's creation and not a metaphor for life and death.

25:53-55

And it is He who has released [simultaneously] the two seas, one fresh and sweet and one salty and bitter, and He placed between them a barrier and prohibiting partition.


And it is He who has created from water a human being and made him [a relative by] lineage and marriage. And ever is your Lord competent [concerning creation].


But they worship rather than Allah that which does not benefit them or harm them, and the disbeliever is ever, against his Lord, an assistant [to Satan].

From what I observe, I think it is evident that the Quran is describing nature. Unfortunately, in nature, there are no barriers between waters that meet, that do not allow them to "transgress". When salty and sweet water meet, in some cases there is a partition between them, but they do always mix to a certain extent.

The author of the Quran made an obvious mistake here, I believe. For me, this is more evidence that he is not God.

Allahma3k. Blessed be His Name.



Edited by TG12345 - 08 August 2013 at 9:15pm
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Quote NABA Replybullet Posted: 09 August 2013 at 10:29am
the best example of this verse can b seen when Mediterranean sea meets with Atlantic ocean,the water of Mediterranean sea is more warm less dense as compared to Atlantic when water of Mediterranean enters Atlantic even at the depth it maintains its original characteristic,explained in principles of oceanography p 93.Allah U Akbar!!!!
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