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Interfaith Dialogue
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Placid
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 20 November 2013 at 5:24am
Hi 1914,

Sorry I missed this earlier,
I am sure that the OT believers had an assurance of heaven. This is written of Enoch in Genesis 5:
21 Enoch lived sixty-five years, and begot Methuselah. 22 After he begot Methuselah, Enoch walked with God three hundred years, and had sons and daughters. 23 So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. 24 And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him. (Not much info, but it indicates that God took Enoch to heaven.)

And David, after his young son died in 2 Samuel 12:
22 And he said, “While the child was alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, ‘Who can tell whether the Lord will be gracious to me, that the child may live?’
23 But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.”
Also God said to Daniel in Daniel 12:
13 “But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.”

The word Paradise is used 3 times in the NT and of course, the first one is when Jesus spoke to the thief on the cross, where He said in Luke 23:
43 “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

While most people associate Paradise with heaven, --- this reveals that both Jesus and the thief died that day, so the Paradise they went to, was not a physical place, but a place, or interim ‘state of being’ where the spirits of the righteous go at the time of death.
Jesus, of course, did not remain in that state, as He returned to appear in a spiritual body after 3 days.

That it is a ‘state of being,’ is verified in the next usage of the word in 2 Corinthians 12:
1 I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord:
2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven.
4 How he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Many commentators believe that Paul was talking about a personal experience he had. --- One minister I knew suggested that this happened when Paul was stoned in Acts 14:
19 Then Jews from Antioch and Iconium came there; and having persuaded the multitudes, they stoned Paul and dragged him out of the city, supposing him to be dead.
--- So if this was Paul’s experience, he would not know whether he was actually dead when his spirit went to the state of Paradise, or whether he was still alive, and simply had this vision of being caught up to the third heaven.
--- (This is another mystery but it implies that the ‘third heaven’ was Paradise.

The third mention of Paradise is in Revelation 2:
7 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.”’
--- Here it identifies Paradise with heaven, so it poses another mystery.
Some commentators have said that Paradise was a place of holding the spirits of the righteous dead, until the time that Jesus died on the cross, --- and it said in Matthew 27:
51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split,
52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

--- These were recognizable believers who were raised and appeared in Jerusalem after His resurrection. --- It is thought by these commentators that after His ascension, --- these beings also ascended to heaven and the new Paradise of God was established in heaven.
--- Before Jesus died, the souls of men were retained by Satan who had the power of death. --- It mentions ‘The spirits that were in prison from the time of Noah’ in 1 Peter 3:18-20.
--- Then the Paradise that retained the souls of the righteous from after the time of Noah till the death of Jesus. --- Then finally the Paradise of God was relocated in the Garden in heaven.

If we see it as a place where the spirits of the righteous would go after their death in the OT, --- then after Jesus’ death and ascension, the saints were given spiritual bodies, in which they would ascend to heaven.
I believe we will walk upright in heaven, but if believers die today and go to this Paradise, it is still not right into heaven as there are still the judgment and awards for the righteous.
--- It is all a wonderful mystery, and almost too complicated to explain since we don’t have full knowledge.
--- In the Quran, all the references are to the ‘afterlife,’ --- or presumably heaven with the Garden and the river running under it.

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1914
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Quote 1914 Replybullet Posted: 01 December 2013 at 2:41pm

Originally posted by Placid

And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him. (Not much info, but it indicates that God took Enoch to heaven.

Since much is not mentioned we don’t know where God took him. But, we know it doesn’t say heaven. I’m trying not to go into the New Testament or Quran because that is where all three religions differ which is why I pose the question from the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms.

Originally posted by iec786

1914 for an answer to this we need to establish

1 what religion you belong to?

2 Who are you addressing?Muslims or the Christians?

3 What you are asking for will take time in explaining so you have to be specific.

Abraham is considered the father of Judaism, Christianity  and Islam. So, it really doesn’t matter what I believe or what you believe for that matter. What did they believe? All three religions believe in the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms (Writings) right? And that is what I’m addressing to all who are interested. Without complicating things, did they believe in a resurrection to an earthly paradise or heavenly paradise?

What view do you have iec786 and why? Please provide reference from the Law, the Prophets or the Psalms.

For some strange reason for this to be a religious forum no one wants to touch this subject. Which is odd, real odd because all three major religions believe in Abraham and a paradise and are fighting tooth and nail to achieve it. Is it because no one can back up what their belief is by using a point of reference so a spin is put on it, I don't know.



Edited by 1914 - 01 December 2013 at 2:43pm
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iec786
 
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Quote iec786 Replybullet Posted: 02 December 2013 at 12:36pm
Hi Placid,

I am sure that the OT believers had an assurance of heaven.

No person has that right.

King James Bible
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
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Placid
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 03 December 2013 at 8:48am
Hi 1914,
Quote: I’m trying not to go into the New Testament or Quran because that is where all three religions differ which is why I pose the question from the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms.

Response, I had given the assurance that David had, --- that he would go to his son, so he was referring to the after-life, though without much explanation.

The Prophet Malachi speaks of the records that are kept in Malachi 3:
16 Then those who feared the Lord spoke to one another,
And the Lord listened and heard them;
So a book of remembrance was written before Him
For those who fear the Lord
And who meditate on His name.
17 “They shall be Mine,” says the Lord of hosts,
“On the day that I make them My jewels.
And I will spare them
As a man spares his own son who serves him.”
18 Then you shall again discern
Between the righteous and the wicked,
Between one who serves God
And one who does not serve Him.

--- (You can glean what you can from that)

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Quote iec786 Replybullet Posted: 04 December 2013 at 10:21pm
1914,
To have a fruitful discussion it is imperative to which religion you belong to,unless you are talking from the point of an atheist or agnostic.The reason is when you talk of books like psalms or the prophets then we need to talk of how authentic these books are.Now you will see from which point i am coming from,if you want to discuss then i need to know where you coming from.What religion you come from and which book or books do you take your references from????.If we cannot establish that then all we would do is scratch the surface and that takes too much time and generalization.I can see you are a serious person, Now identify yourself.
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Quote 1914 Replybullet Posted: 06 December 2013 at 9:07pm
I appreciate your comments Placid and ice. I see God certainly remembers the good deeds of men and those who fear him. But, don't know if that's paradise in heaven or on earth. I personally cannot find anything pertaining to a heavenly life in the OT, maybe I'm over looking something.

Ice, like you and Placid I believe in the Law, Prophets and Psalms. I think that is where we all started. But, my question is not about my beliefs but the beliefs of the prophets of old (OT) and there belief in paradise/heaven/afterlife, did they have such a belief and if so what prophet?

  


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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 11 December 2013 at 9:09am
Hi,

I know that there are not many specifics in the Scriptures, and the best Person to consider is Enoch who had such faith in God and walked so close to Him that it says in Genesis 5:24 "Enoch walked with God, and was not, for God took him.
It is suggested that he was 'translated' and escaped physical death, but there is no explanation.

However, I have a copy of "The Book of Enoch" which is translated by R H Charles. It is a book of over 150 pages and it has secrets of the universe and the Luminaries, and 'Astronomical' secrets. There are 'vision' and 'Journeys of Enoch through the earth.'

There is a section on Paradise and heaven, but it may be mentioned in other places as I just thumbed through it.
--- (In looking through it and seeing the notations I made at the first reading, I feel I should read it again.)

It has fragments of "The Book of Noah" and a lot of 'end time' prophecy. It was written in Hebrew and is mentioned in the Zondervan Bible Dictionary as being known between 163 and 63 BC. --- This was during the Maccabean Period when Israel had 'independence' for about 100 years.

A fascinating Book but perhaps a little hard to find.
--- Or it may be found in a Library.

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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 11 December 2013 at 11:17pm
Originally posted by Placid

Hi,
A fascinating Book but perhaps a little hard to find.
--- Or it may be found in a Library.

I have one Big%20smile  ...but I never did get very far in reading it.
Now I think maybe I should try again.


Edited by Caringheart - 11 December 2013 at 11:17pm
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
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