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whitelion553
 
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Quote whitelion553 Replybullet Posted: 23 July 2013 at 11:51pm
i try to say only facts
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 24 July 2013 at 4:52pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

This is my point exactly; you would do whatever was necessary to ensure the survival of the business... and yes, it is personal ethics that determine business ethics...
just as ethics of governmental leaders determines the actions of government...

No, I think you missed my point.  I am tempted to say that "business ethics" is an oxymoron, but that's not quite right.  Business ethics is to play by the rules set down by government.  That's all.  It is very different from personal ethics, which is why I contrasted my business responsibility as a corporate CEO to take full advantage of every tax loophole, cheap labour and weak environmental laws with my personal responsibility to fight against all those things in the political arena.

government is a business... the business of governance for the survival of the society...

If government is a business, it's a very peculiar kind of business -- one which makes its own rules, coins its own money and is accountable to the very people it controls.

Which is why people need to elect government officials with good moral ethics.  It is why they need better choices.  It is why the people themselves need to get involved, to step up, and provide those better options from amongst themselves.

Do you seriously think that "good moral ethics" is an important criterion for choosing a CEO?  I mean, aside from a commitment to follow the letter of the law (i.e., good business ethics)?  How long do you think the CEO of a major oil or tobacco company would retain his position if he started telling people that they really ought to quit using his product?

What is better, to have a government that is unwanted by its people, turn its guns, its military on those people in order to retain power...
or for those guns, that military, to remove the person in power that is unwanted by the people, in order to retain peace?

But how do we decide whether a government is unwanted?  That's what elections are for.  If Morsi had lost an election and refused to step down, then I agree that the military could legitimately force him out; but that's not what happened, as you know.

I still don't buy the claim that the majority are opposed to Morsi.  Frankly, if that were true, then the majority would be better advised to let the democratic process play itself out.  If they claim a moral right to take power by force, then their opposition can make the same claim.  And we know where that leads.

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 24 July 2013 at 6:20pm
Hi Ron,

Maybe you and I are from different generations.  Before my generation business men did feel accountable to the people whom they employed.  Much as estate managers(the 'Lords' of england, the good ones) used to consider themselves responsible for supplying employment, and care to the people who worked for them.  Times have changed.  I was friends with an english woman who told me while they were living in India(many years ago, now), because they were seen to have wealth (even though they were not wealthy but only by comparison), it was considered by the local people as an obligation and a duty for them to hire household help to give employment to the local people.  She said she was never comfortable with having household servants, but it was expected and they obliged.
You see I come from a time when people lived by the teaching;
"to whom much is given, much will be required." 
People took their duties, responsibilities, and obligations seriously.

"Do you seriously think that "good moral ethics" is an important criterion for choosing a CEO?"
Yes, I do, and there are some that still do run their businesses according to good moral ethics.
But, as it was so hard to find, it is also the reason I left the business world.
You see, this is what has become the main ailment of our society... greed and self-interest.

"if that were true, then the majority would be better advised to let the democratic process play itself out."
I agree... but hey, look what part of the world we are talking about, and what usually happens there.  What is the best solution to controlling civil unrest?



Edited by Caringheart - 24 July 2013 at 6:22pm
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Blessed be God forever
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whitelion553
 
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Quote whitelion553 Replybullet Posted: 26 July 2013 at 3:04am

http://en.humanrights-iran.ir/news-20782.aspx

http://en.humanrights-iran.ir/news-20791.aspx

 

The Pentagon and the US Embassy in Cairo have denied reports in the Egyptian media that an American task force in the Red Sea is preparing to "invade Egypt."

i try to say only facts
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 26 July 2013 at 4:46pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

Maybe you and I are from different generations.  Before my generation business men did feel accountable to the people whom they employed.  Much as estate managers(the 'Lords' of england, the good ones) used to consider themselves responsible for supplying employment, and care to the people who worked for them.  Times have changed. ...

We may not be as far apart in generational terms as you might suppose.  I think the main difference between us is that I am looking at the world as it is, and you are talking about how it ought to be.  As much as we might want businesses to be ethical creatures, the hard reality is that a successful business must always place profits ahead of people.  It has to, in order to compete with other businesses that will certainly be doing the same.

Did business owners ever feel that much responsibility or empathy for their employees?  The life of a sharecropper or a miner or a sailor or a factory worker was tough, his work was dangerous, his pay was minimal and for the most part the upper echelons frankly didn't care whether he lived or died.  If anything, his circumstances have gradually improved over the decades, but only through government and union pressure, not because the bosses felt any moral imperative about it.

I'm talking about big business, of course -- mega-multi-transnational corporations with thousands or millions of employees.  Small business, where the owner actually gets to know his employees by name, is an entirely different animal.  It is also an endangered species, with the megacorps taking an ever-larger share of the economy.  Maybe that trend is the reason we sometimes have the impression of "the good old days" when employers cared about their employees.

------
I agree that the US is behaving like a business with regard to Egypt -- in other words, without regard to ethics.  Bluntly, the US needs allies in the Middle East in order to promote its "interests" (i.e., access to oil) in the region.  It knows it can't work with Morsi, so it wants him out, and it is spending billions to force him out.  Whether Morsi has a legitimate claim to leadership (which he apparently does, having won a fair election as far as I can see) is irrelevant.

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 26 July 2013 at 5:21pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

I'm talking about big business, of course -- mega-multi-transnational corporations with thousands or millions of employees.  Small business, where the owner actually gets to know his employees by name, is an entirely different animal.  It is also an endangered species, with the megacorps taking an ever-larger share of the economy.  Maybe that trend is the reason we sometimes have the impression of "the good old days" when employers cared about their employees.

------
I agree that the US is behaving like a business with regard to Egypt -- in other words, without regard to ethics.  Bluntly, the US needs allies in the Middle East in order to promote its "interests" (i.e., access to oil) in the region.  It knows it can't work with Morsi, so it wants him out, and it is spending billions to force him out.  Whether Morsi has a legitimate claim to leadership (which he apparently does, having won a fair election as far as I can see) is irrelevant.



Hi Ron,
We hit the same page when I started reading your 3rd paragraph... suddenly it was saying all the things that I was going to respond to you. Smile

Yes, I believe it is big business that has ruined what once was the foundation of the United States of America... the small businessman.

As far as Egypt, I guess the point where we still differ is on whether or not large numbers of people were calling for the removal of Morsi and whether civil unrest was once again imminent.  Unless you or I go there... or know someone from there, we really have no way of knowing the truth for certain. Unhappy

Blessings to you,
Caringheart


Edited by Caringheart - 26 July 2013 at 5:23pm
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 26 July 2013 at 7:58pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

Yes, I believe it is big business that has ruined what once was the foundation of the United States of America... the small businessman.

Unfortunately, small business can't compete with the megacorps in a laissez-faire free market.  That's why we need government regulations.

As far as Egypt, I guess the point where we still differ is on whether or not large numbers of people were calling for the removal of Morsi and whether civil unrest was once again imminent.  Unless you or I go there... or know someone from there, we really have no way of knowing the truth for certain.

Going there won't help.  You can't talk to 90 million people yourself.  Fortunately, democracy has a built-in mechanism for assessing whether large numbers of people are dissatisfied with the government.  It's called an election.

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 26 July 2013 at 8:22pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Going there won't help.  You can't talk to 90 million people yourself.  Fortunately, democracy has a built-in mechanism for assessing whether large numbers of people are dissatisfied with the government.  It's called an election.


Well currently about half the population in the United States disapproves of their current president.  What if that number increased to 90% and people turned out in the streets saying that they wanted him removed?



Edited by Caringheart - 26 July 2013 at 8:22pm
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