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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 01 July 2013 at 7:15am

You didn't use the word "rape" (nor did I); but maybe it is appropriate after all.  The relationship between master and slave is the ultimate power imbalance.  A slave cannot meaningfully be said to consent to anything that her master demands, when refusal might result in terrible retaliation.

We refer to it as "statutory rape" when an adult has sex with a child, for exactly that reason.  Even an employer would be on very shaky moral ground if he approached one of his female employees for sex.  But master and slave? Disapprove

You are saying that if a woman is literally a man's slave and totally within his control, it is morally permissible for him to have sex with her; but as soon as she becomes free and equal, it becomes impermissible.  This is exactly backwards to most people's moral intuition.

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 01 July 2013 at 9:13am
We all measure situations from the yardstick of our own culture and the norms prevalent in it.

Even i have not seen the culture and times when slavery was okay. However I know that Islam did not encourage it. There are several proofs in islamic attitude to abolish this custom from society. ex; expiation of sins in many cases includes freeing of a certain number of slaves. Freeing them, marrying them, or having them married to a someone was all highly praiseworthy actions. If a child is born from the union of a master and his slave this child is no longer treated as slave -he/she is a free individual. The mother is freed upon the death of the master, she could not be inherited by anyone in the family.

Also, it was not permmited for a master to have relations with a female slave who was married.

Besides this, islamically a master was supposed to treat the slaves in kindness - feeding them and clothing them with the same standards as for himself. These females were housed in the same part of the household which was inhabited by other females members of the family and this place was called the harem. Harem is not a place for slaves only, rather its that part of the household which is inhabited by the females.
And, oppression in islam is strictly prohibited.

Under this context, if any master used force and oppression then certainly he acted outside the limits of Islam. Even between married couples, a muslims wife is not supposed to deny the wishes of her husband, but at the same time husband does not have a right to force himself on her. Therefore, the relationship which was permissible between a master and his slave - I cannot call it statutory rape.
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 01 July 2013 at 11:13am
Originally posted by Nausheen

Ron and CH,

Can you please quote where I said it was okay for the master to rape his unmarrid female slaves?


Greetings Nausheen,

Ron did well in explaining. Smile

Regarding this though;
"expiation of sins in many cases includes freeing of a certain number of slaves."
You know what this reminds me of?
The thing that caused the split within the Catholic church and created the resultant Protestant churches... the buying of indulges that were sold by the Catholic church... as if someone could buy their way out of God's judgement.

Regarding slaves:
No matter how much 'kindness' one may be treated with, would you consider that there is any kindness in having your own free will taken away from you, especially in sexual matters?
But you are saying that you believe that even the slave had the right to consent or not to consent?

Salaam,
Caringheart
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
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Quote Janissary7 Replybullet Posted: 01 July 2013 at 2:01pm
If a war happened now between west and lands of Islam, could it be permissible. I wonder if it would have been in WW1 between Ottomans and France and Britain as well?

I mean its interesting allah allowed men slavegirls but not muslim women slave men...
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 01 July 2013 at 6:37pm

Originally posted by Nausheen

We all measure situations from the yardstick of our own culture and the norms prevalent in it.

If only that were true, but the Muslim yardstick is from 7th century Arabia.  Quite frankly, that is the problem.  I can see the justification for slavery in Muhammad's time, but that time is long past, and those justifications no longer apply.

Even i have not seen the culture and times when slavery was okay. However I know that Islam did not encourage it.

I don't want to turn this topic into a discussion of slavery, but I have to say that I just don't buy that.  Regulation of slavery does not imply disapproval of it, any more than regulation of commerce implies disapproval of it; and if Allah had wanted to abolish slavery, He would have done so.  Clearly He does approve of it -- and apparently so did Muhammad, who captured and enslaved many people in the course of warfare.  If he disapproved, he had a funny way of showing it.

Besides this, islamically a master was supposed to treat the slaves in kindness - feeding them and clothing them with the same standards as for himself.

Which doesn't alter the fact that a slave cannot be said to genuinely consent to sex with her master, any more than a child can genuinely consent to sex with an adult.  If an adult has sex with an underage girl, does it matter that he treats her with kindness?  Even if she "consents"?

Look, if we assume for the sake of argument that slavery is permissible at all, then I can understand in theory that a master can have sex with his slave.  She is his property after all, and he can do what he wants with her.  Her consent doesn't matter.

What I don't understand is how you can hold that view, while simultaneously forbidding sex with free women.  In other words, as long as she is a slave who cannot reasonably be said to consent, she is fair game; but if her frees her, so that she can freely consent, then suddenly she is off limits.  How does this make sense?

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 03 July 2013 at 6:35am

Whether it is 'rape' or not ? it is definitely the power the Master has over the slave that gets the slave doing what he wants.

Abit like Mohamad having sex with a 9 year old girl. It may have been 'consenting'. But think of the power difference a man in his 50s has over a girl aged 9 years old. And that was probably without having to beat her with a stick that the Quaran also allows.


Edited by Experiential - 03 July 2013 at 8:55pm
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NABA
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Quote NABA Replybullet Posted: 03 July 2013 at 9:26am
At Ron what it matters is today,today we have to follow Qur'an and it says that don't do adultery and fornication(ch 17 v 32).even before the revelation of verse of ch 5 v 90(alcohol is forbidden)alcohol was also permissible.

Edited by NABA - 04 July 2013 at 9:28am
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 03 July 2013 at 4:23pm

Yes NABA, I understand. You can't have sex with an unmarried girl, even if she is agreeable; but if you declare war on her tribe/village, kill all her relatives, destroy her home and take her prisoner, then its okay.  No wonder the early Muslims found so many excuses to attack their neighbours.

what it matters is today,today we have to follow Qur'an ...

That is a contradiction.  The Quran was written in the 7th century, and reflects the conditions and standards of the 7th century.  If today really mattered to you, you would live by moral standards appropriate to today, not the 7th century.

You don't have to follow the Quran.  You choose to, but you could choose otherwise if you wanted.  You could recognize that a book that gets so many things wrong, both factually and morally, cannot possibly have been written by God.  Then you would be free to do what you know in your heart is right; and you know in your heart that having sex with a captive girl is not right, no matter what the Quran says.

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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