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Interfaith Dialogue
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NABA
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Quote NABA Replybullet Posted: 04 July 2013 at 9:44am
U R right about the fact that nobody had to follow Qur'an,because Allah has given us free will,but Allah also says that he will grant reward and punishments in hereafter,if a person knows punishments of hereafter he will follow Qur'an for eg to the sinners new skin will be given to feel  the pain each time when they loose layer of skin(ch 4 v 56),in Qur'an doing sex with unmarried girl is not only the thing that Allah forbids us,I have seen many cases that people offer 5 time salaah yet they quarrel with parents and put them to old age home,Allah says the 2nd best thing after worshipping him is to b good to parents even when they enter senescence(ch 17 v 23-24),some people claim themselves to b Islamic but enter ones house without knocking the door,Allah forbids this in ch 24 v 27-29,and as I said earlier U can't judge Quran,U say it describes only about 7th century,Qur'an explain things which are today proved by science,famous scientist Edwin Hubble said universe is expanding,Allah says this fact 1400 years ago in ch 51 v 47,in those days there were the period of wars,so once again I say since there were no revelation of that verse,the thing was acceptable.okay I put a situation in front of U and U prove me is it wrong or right according to religious books,our government implemented caste system in education,Qur'an strictly forbids caste system(ch 6 v 159),in this case general category people through donation enter colleges,people say it is haraam,but I say it is optional,because there is no verse regarding this thing in any of religious books,similarly at that time the verse regarding adultery,fornication was not revealed.
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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 04 July 2013 at 7:02pm
Originally posted by NABA

U R right about the fact that nobody had to follow Qur'an,because Allah has given us free will,but Allah also says that he will grant reward and punishments in hereafter,if a person knows punishments of hereafter he will follow Qur'an for eg to the sinners new skin will be given to feel  the pain each time when they loose layer of skin(ch 4 v 56),in Qur'an doing sex with unmarried girl is not only the thing that Allah forbids us,I have seen many cases that people offer 5 time salaah yet they quarrel with parents and put them to old age home,Allah says the 2nd best thing after worshipping him is to b good to parents even when they enter senescence(ch 17 v 23-24),some people claim themselves to b Islamic but enter ones house without knocking the door,Allah forbids this in ch 24 v 27-29,and as I said earlier U can't judge Quran,U say it describes only about 7th century,Qur'an explain things which are today proved by science,famous scientist Edwin Hubble said universe is expanding,Allah says this fact 1400 years ago in ch 51 v 47,in those days there were the period of wars,so once again I say since there were no revelation of that verse,the thing was acceptable.okay I put a situation in front of U and U prove me is it wrong or right according to religious books,our government implemented caste system in education,Qur'an strictly forbids caste system(ch 6 v 159),in this case general category people through donation enter colleges,people say it is haraam,but I say it is optional,because there is no verse regarding this thing in any of religious books,similarly at that time the verse regarding adultery,fornication was not revealed.

Hi Naba

When you say –if a person knows punishments of hereafter he will follow Qur'an for eg to the sinners new skin will be given to feel  the pain each time when they loose layer of skin(ch 4 v 56),

I think this is disgusting! Is this the religion you believe in? One of fear and punishment?

 

You said “the Qur'an explains things which are today proved by science, famous scientist Edwin Hubble said universe is expanding, Allah says this fact 1400 years ago in ch 51 v 47.”

As I have mentioned to you before when you say this you are relying on science in your argument– proving that science is as important or superior to the Quran.

 

When you say things like “at that time the verse regarding adultery, fornication was not revealed.” Are you saying that the Quran was only for the 7th century. I thought the Quaran was ‘timeless’ and a miracle?



Edited by Experiential - 04 July 2013 at 10:36pm
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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 04 July 2013 at 8:04pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

  The Quran was written in the 7th century, and reflects the conditions and standards of the 7th century.  If today really mattered to you, you would live by moral standards appropriate to today, not the 7th century.


Who will decide the 'moral standard' of today?

Is everyone willing to accept this authority unanimously?

If yes, then sure we can discard the Quran and follow this one voice, this international standard. but if no, then whatever you are suggesting is just not a workable solution. We've got to think harder.
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 04 July 2013 at 8:24pm

Originally posted by NABA

U R right about the fact that nobody had to follow Qur'an,because Allah has given us free will,but Allah also says that he will grant reward and punishments in hereafter,if a person knows punishments of hereafter he will follow Qur'an for eg to the sinners new skin will be given to feel  the pain each time when they loose layer of skin(ch 4 v 56),...

You don't have to believe that either.  Frankly, I don't know how you can believe that of an allegedly loving and merciful god.  Would you treat another person that way, ever, for any reason?  Of course not.  It's just one more thing that you know in your heart is not right about the Quran. 

...and as I said earlier U can't judge Quran,U say it describes only about 7th century,Qur'an explain things which are today proved by science,famous scientist Edwin Hubble said universe is expanding,Allah says this fact 1400 years ago in ch 51 v 47...

I have replied to this in your other discussion, universe!!!.

okay I put a situation in front of U and U prove me is it wrong or right according to religious books,our government implemented caste system in education,Qur'an strictly forbids caste system(ch 6 v 159),in this case general category people through donation enter colleges,people say it is haraam,but I say it is optional,because there is no verse regarding this thing in any of religious books,similarly at that time the verse regarding adultery,fornication was not revealed.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.  My personal opinion is that any caste system is wrong, but I don't know what your religious books say about it and frankly I don't much care.  As for whether fornication is right or wrong, surely it is what it is, regardless of whether a particular surah has been revealed or not.  Are you saying that fornication was just fine before the Quran was revealed, and only became wrong after God told us so?

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 04 July 2013 at 8:27pm
Originally posted by Experiential

Hi Naba


When you say –


for eg to the sinners new skin will be given to feel the pain each time when they loose layer of skin(ch 4 v 56


I think this is disgusting! Is this the religion you believe in? One of fear and punishment?



IN december 2012, a girl was raped by 6 men one of them who was a minor, in a moving bus on the roads of Indian Capital. After they finished their job, they inserted rod in her genitals. Took away all her clothes and threw her off a bridge in the cold winter night - ie left her to die. I think it was highly disgusting, and those who did it had no fear of any kind of punishment.

If you do a google search on the event you can find several news items reporting from New Delhi.

People in India were demanding a punishment for them as prescribed in the Quran ... they are not muslims, nobody, the victim the rapists or general public at large, but they asked for an islamic punishment.

The point here is that if one does not beleive in a 'disgusting' consequence of their 'disgusting' deeds, they can cross limits on earth - which makes life hell on this very planet.

This event was no joke for anyone who has connections with India. I was considering my daughter's higher education in New Delhi, but I am much shaken from inside after this event - do you get a fair amount of impact of this event? If yes, what kind of world are we living in, and what kind of democracy are we voting for?


Originally posted by Experiential

the Qur'an explains things which are today proved by science, famous scientist Edwin Hubble said universe is expanding, Allah says this fact 1400 years ago in ch 51 v 47.”As I have mentioned to you before when you say this you are relying on science in your argument– proving that science is as important or superior to the Quran.



This means if you believe in nothing but science, then even science is in harmony with the quran at certain points, so why do you not pay attention to the Quran. Real scientists pay attention to everything that is found relevant to their observations, and those who have seen their phenomenon mentioned in the Quran have taken the quran more seriously than the by-standers.

Originally posted by Experiential


When you say things like “at that time the verse regarding adultery, fornication was not revealed.” Are you saying that the Quran was only for the 7th century. I thought the Quaran was ‘timeless’ and a miracle?



He is only telling you that the Quran was not revealed in one go, in one incidence. The verses came down in stages through a span of 23 years. Thus the chronology of revelation is very important to the text and a careful scholar of Quran does not take it lightly.


Edited by Nausheen - 04 July 2013 at 8:31pm
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 04 July 2013 at 8:37pm

Originally posted by Nausheen

Originally posted by Ron Webb

   The Quran was written in the 7th century, and reflects the conditions and standards of the 7th century.  If today really mattered to you, you would live by moral standards appropriate to today, not the 7th century.

Who will decide the 'moral standard' of today?

We all will.  Each of us individually and all of us collectively.

Is everyone willing to accept this authority unanimously?

Probably not.  Is everyone willing to accept the authority of the Quran unanimously?  Or the Bible, or the Bhagavad Gita, or the Book of Mormon, or...?

If yes, then sure we can discard the Quran and follow this one voice, this international standard. but if no, then whatever you are suggesting is just not a workable solution. We've got to think harder.

Democracy is the only workable solution.  The majority may not always be right, but in the end they will always prevail by sheer numbers.  Any attempt to suppress the will of the majority will eventually lead to bloodshed, and ultimately will fail.

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 04 July 2013 at 8:42pm

Originally posted by Nausheen

The point here is that if one does not beleive in a 'disgusting' consequence of their 'disgusting' deeds, they can cross limits on earth - which makes life hell on this very planet.

No, the point is that if you sink to the same level as them, then you are no better than them.

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 04 July 2013 at 8:54pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by NABA

U R right about the fact that nobody had to follow Qur'an,because Allah has given us free will,but Allah also says that he will grant reward and punishments in hereafter,if a person knows punishments of hereafter he will follow Qur'an for eg to the sinners new skin will be given to feel  the pain each time when they loose layer of skin(ch 4 v 56),...


You don't have to believe that either.  Frankly, I don't know how you can believe that of an allegedly loving and merciful god.  Would you treat another person that way, ever, for any reason?  Of course not.  It's just one more thing that you know in your heart is not right about the Quran. 




Im really surprised at people living in such a safe haven of belief.
Some of us want to beleive that God is only compassionate and merciful and this attribute of His negats from Him other attributes which would call for justice and punishment etc.

The God in Islam however is not just merciful and compassionater - Ar Rahman and Ar Raheem.
He is also Al-Hasib and Al Muhsi - which means The Reckoner and Al- Muntaqim - which means the avenger besides so many other attributes, all totaling upto 99. These are on many instances mutually exclusive of each other. ie, a God who is merciful can at the same time be an avenger, and a reckoner - Wise and Just - all in the same instance.

Thus a muslim does not live in hope alone, for him hope and fear go side-by-side.

In this thread we are debating the limits of God, presuming we may be wiser than Him and His limits on the rules of fornication are somehow not sufficient to keep a check on our social behavior -
So, if your God is merciful and compassionte only, how will He treat the social behaviors of the Ottaman masters towards their unmarried female slaves?
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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