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Prophets - Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Prophets - Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses
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Nazarene
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Quote Nazarene Replybullet Posted: 20 September 2008 at 9:38pm
 peace

Edited by Nazarene - 21 September 2008 at 7:18pm
love for all conquers all
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Quote Nazarene Replybullet Posted: 21 September 2008 at 7:16pm
Originally posted by semar

Salam,

In the story of prophet Abraham, there is disagremment between Islam in one side and Cristianity/Judaism in the other side about the child who slautered by Prophet Abraham. According to Islam the child was Ismael and according to Christianity/Judaism was Ishak. Is there anybody in this forum knows the arguments of both side based on the holly scripts or other sources.

this is from the gospel of barnabashttp://www.barnabas.net/chapters/92.html?task=view 
     DATES BEFORE 180 CE.  READ HOW IT SURVIED ON THE WEBSITE.
      NOTICE WHO'S NAME IS MENTIONED AT THE BOTTOM. AND REMEMER THE DATE OF THIS.
 
Thereupon said the disciples: 'O master, it is thus written in the book of Moses, that in Isaac was the promise made.'
    
              Jesus answered, with a groan: 'It is so written, but Moses wrote it not, nor Joshua, but rather our rabbins, who fear not God. Verily I say unto you, that if ye consider the words of  the angel Gabriel, ye shall discover the malice of our scribes and doctors. For the angel said: "Abraham, all the world shall know how God loveth thee; but how shall the world know the love that thou bearest to God? Assuredly it is necessary that thou do something for love of God." Abraham answered: "Behold the servant of God, ready to do all that which God shall will."
    
              'Then spoke God, saying to Abraham: "Take thy son, thy firstborn Ishmael, and come up the mountain to sacrifice him."
              How is Isaac firstborn, if when Isaac was born Ishmael was seven years old?

    
             Then said the disciples: 'Clear is the deception of our doctors: therefore tell us thou the truth, because we know that thou art sent from God.'
    
            Then answered Jesus: 'Verily I say unto you, that Satan ever seeketh to annual the laws of God; and therefore he with his followers, hypocrites and evil-doers, the former with false doctrine, the latter with lewd living, to-day have contaminated almost all things, so that scarcely is the truth found. Woe to the hypocrites! for the praises of this world shall turn for them into insults and torments in hell.
    
          'I therefore say unto you that the messenger of God is a splendour that shall give gladness to nearly all that God hath made, for he is adorned with the spirit of understanding and of counsel, the spirit of wisdom and might, the spirit of fear and love, the spirit of prudence and temperance, he is adorned with the spirit of charity and mercy, the spirit of justice and piety, the spirit of gentleness and patience, which he hath received from God three times more than he hath given to all his creatures. O blessed time, when he shall come to the world! Believe me that I have seen him and have done him reverence, even as every prophet hath seen him: seeing that of his spirit God giveth to them prophecy. And when I saw him my soul was filled with consolation, saying: "O Mohammed, God be with thee, and may he make me worthy to untie thy shoelatchet, for obtaining this I shall be a great prophet and holy one of God." '
    
         And having said this, Jesus rendered his thanks to God.


Edited by Nazarene - 22 September 2008 at 7:38pm
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Quote robin Replybullet Posted: 27 September 2008 at 5:51am
Originally posted by Nazarene

Originally posted by semar

Salam,

In the story of prophet Abraham, there is disagremment between Islam in one side and Cristianity/Judaism in the other side about the child who slautered by Prophet Abraham. According to Islam the child was Ismael and according to Christianity/Judaism was Ishak. Is there anybody in this forum knows the arguments of both side based on the holly scripts or other sources.

this is from the gospel of barnabashttp://www.barnabas.net/chapters/92.html?task=view 
     DATES BEFORE 180 CE.  READ HOW IT SURVIED ON THE WEBSITE.
      NOTICE WHO'S NAME IS MENTIONED AT THE BOTTOM. AND REMEMER THE DATE OF THIS.
 
Thereupon said the disciples: 'O master, it is thus written in the book of Moses, that in Isaac was the promise made.'
    
              Jesus answered, with a groan: 'It is so written, but Moses wrote it not, nor Joshua, but rather our rabbins, who fear not God. Verily I say unto you, that if ye consider the words of  the angel Gabriel, ye shall discover the malice of our scribes and doctors. For the angel said: "Abraham, all the world shall know how God loveth thee; but how shall the world know the love that thou bearest to God? Assuredly it is necessary that thou do something for love of God." Abraham answered: "Behold the servant of God, ready to do all that which God shall will."
    
              'Then spoke God, saying to Abraham: "Take thy son, thy firstborn Ishmael, and come up the mountain to sacrifice him."
              How is Isaac firstborn, if when Isaac was born Ishmael was seven years old?

    
             Then said the disciples: 'Clear is the deception of our doctors: therefore tell us thou the truth, because we know that thou art sent from God.'
    
            Then answered Jesus: 'Verily I say unto you, that Satan ever seeketh to annual the laws of God; and therefore he with his followers, hypocrites and evil-doers, the former with false doctrine, the latter with lewd living, to-day have contaminated almost all things, so that scarcely is the truth found. Woe to the hypocrites! for the praises of this world shall turn for them into insults and torments in hell.
    
          'I therefore say unto you that the messenger of God is a splendour that shall give gladness to nearly all that God hath made, for he is adorned with the spirit of understanding and of counsel, the spirit of wisdom and might, the spirit of fear and love, the spirit of prudence and temperance, he is adorned with the spirit of charity and mercy, the spirit of justice and piety, the spirit of gentleness and patience, which he hath received from God three times more than he hath given to all his creatures. O blessed time, when he shall come to the world! Believe me that I have seen him and have done him reverence, even as every prophet hath seen him: seeing that of his spirit God giveth to them prophecy. And when I saw him my soul was filled with consolation, saying: "O Mohammed, God be with thee, and may he make me worthy to untie thy shoelatchet, for obtaining this I shall be a great prophet and holy one of God." '
    
         And having said this, Jesus rendered his thanks to God.
 
 

Isaac is firstborn my God's promise and God's miraculous help to have children when they were both past the age of having children, Abraham was about a 100 yrs. old (Gen 17:17).   So from God's viewpoint he is first by God's Will.

 

Ishmael was according to the flesh (not the will of God), and not of God's promise, so I time he was first, but not according to God's will, and is thus not in the line of the promised one to come!

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Quote Nazarene Replybullet Posted: 27 September 2008 at 8:37pm
Originally posted by robin

Originally posted by Nazarene

Originally posted by semar

Salam,

In the story of prophet Abraham, there is disagremment between Islam in one side and Cristianity/Judaism in the other side about the child who slautered by Prophet Abraham. According to Islam the child was Ismael and according to Christianity/Judaism was Ishak. Is there anybody in this forum knows the arguments of both side based on the holly scripts or other sources.

this is from the gospel of barnabashttp://www.barnabas.net/chapters/92.html?task=view 
     DATES BEFORE 180 CE.  READ HOW IT SURVIED ON THE WEBSITE.
      NOTICE WHO'S NAME IS MENTIONED AT THE BOTTOM. AND REMEMER THE DATE OF THIS.
 
Thereupon said the disciples: 'O master, it is thus written in the book of Moses, that in Isaac was the promise made.'
    
              Jesus answered, with a groan: 'It is so written, but Moses wrote it not, nor Joshua, but rather our rabbins, who fear not God. Verily I say unto you, that if ye consider the words of  the angel Gabriel, ye shall discover the malice of our scribes and doctors. For the angel said: "Abraham, all the world shall know how God loveth thee; but how shall the world know the love that thou bearest to God? Assuredly it is necessary that thou do something for love of God." Abraham answered: "Behold the servant of God, ready to do all that which God shall will."
    
              'Then spoke God, saying to Abraham: "Take thy son, thy firstborn Ishmael, and come up the mountain to sacrifice him."
              How is Isaac firstborn, if when Isaac was born Ishmael was seven years old?

    
             Then said the disciples: 'Clear is the deception of our doctors: therefore tell us thou the truth, because we know that thou art sent from God.'
    
            Then answered Jesus: 'Verily I say unto you, that Satan ever seeketh to annual the laws of God; and therefore he with his followers, hypocrites and evil-doers, the former with false doctrine, the latter with lewd living, to-day have contaminated almost all things, so that scarcely is the truth found. Woe to the hypocrites! for the praises of this world shall turn for them into insults and torments in hell.
    
          'I therefore say unto you that the messenger of God is a splendour that shall give gladness to nearly all that God hath made, for he is adorned with the spirit of understanding and of counsel, the spirit of wisdom and might, the spirit of fear and love, the spirit of prudence and temperance, he is adorned with the spirit of charity and mercy, the spirit of justice and piety, the spirit of gentleness and patience, which he hath received from God three times more than he hath given to all his creatures. O blessed time, when he shall come to the world! Believe me that I have seen him and have done him reverence, even as every prophet hath seen him: seeing that of his spirit God giveth to them prophecy. And when I saw him my soul was filled with consolation, saying: "O Mohammed, God be with thee, and may he make me worthy to untie thy shoelatchet, for obtaining this I shall be a great prophet and holy one of God." '
    
         And having said this, Jesus rendered his thanks to God.
 
 

Isaac is firstborn my God's promise and God's miraculous help to have children when they were both past the age of having children, Abraham was about a 100 yrs. old (Gen 17:17).   So from God's viewpoint he is first by God's Will.

 

Ishmael was according to the flesh (not the will of God), and not of God's promise, so I time he was first, but not according to God's will, and is thus not in the line of the promised one to come!

 
jeremiah 8:8'  How can you say, "We are wise,
       for we have the law of the LORD,"
       when actually the lying pen of the scribes
       has handled it falsely
 
  hebrews 8:13   By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear
 
  Gospel of Peace
http://www.essene.com/GospelOfPeace/peace1.html 
 
    And Jesus answered: "Seek not the law in your scriptures, for the law is life, whereas the scripture is dead. I tell you truly, Moses received not his laws from God in writing, but through the living word. The law is living word of living God to living prophets for living men. In everything that is life is the law written. You find it in the grass, in the tree, in the river, in the mountain, in the birds of heaven, in the fishes of the sea; but seek it chiefly in yourselves. For I tell you truly, all living things are nearer to God than the scripture which is without life. God so made life and all living things that they might by the everlasting word teach the laws of the true God to man. God wrote not the laws in the pages of books, but in your heart and in your spirit. They are in your breath, your blood, your bone; in your flesh, your bowels, your eyes, your ears, and in every little part of your body. They are present in the air, in the water, in the earth, in the plants, in the sunbeams, in the depths and in the heights. They all speak to you that you may understand the tongue and the will of the living God. But you shut your eyes that you may not see, and you shut your ears that you may not hear. I tell you truly, that the scripture is the work of man, but life and all its hosts are the work of our God. Wherefore do you not listen to the words of God which are written in His works? And wherefore do you study the dead scriptures which are the work of the hands of men?"
 
Jesus said: "You do not understand the words of life, because you are in death. Darkness darkens your eyes and your ears are stopped with deafness. For I tell you, it profits you not at all that you pore over dead scriptures if by your deeds you deny him who has given you the scriptureses
 
  my point is the same as stated by our bro. minuteman below .
 
    we must understand where your infomation comes from. as stated above corrupt, outdated and rendered irrelevent by that writen by amens' own hand.
 
also i belive the story of the prodical son relates to the leaving of isaac. ishmael and abraham remained together.
 


Edited by Nazarene - 29 September 2008 at 8:55pm
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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 28 September 2008 at 8:20am

 Here is wonderful article by Abdul-Rahman(Brent) Klimaszewskil (He is a new convert to Islam) on the subject of The Truth About Abraham and his SON Ishmael.
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 29 September 2008 at 5:49am
 
 That analysis by Abdul rehman is perfect. The incident of sacrifice took place well before the birth of Issac. It took place in arabia, near makkah place called marwah. (remember safa and Marwah).
 
 Abraham migrated from native land, entered Syria and then travelled to Egypt too. Later He returned to palestine and  Allah promised him all the land he could see. But he was childless. He prayed to Allah to grant him some heir. Otherwise land will be no use to him. Please read chapter 37 of Quran from verse 83 onward to verse 112. All is there.
 
 Abraham prayed for a capable son. Allah gave him the good news of a grown up son (Ghulam un Haleem), a forebearing son. That was when Abraham had no son at all. If he had a son then why he will pray for a son? He had no son at that time. So the son being born was a promised son.
 
 When the son grew up and started running about, before that Abraham under divine guidance left that son and his wife Hagar in the wilderness of Arabia at a place now called Makkah and went away.
 
 His wife asked him why he was leaving them there. He had some tears in his eyes and could not look back to reply. Just kept quiet. Then Hagar understood and asked "Are you leaving us here under some divine mission?"  He simply nodded his head and went away back to Kan'a'an.
 
 The mother (Hagar) and child (Ishmael) lived there somehow. Abraham after some time (years) came and visited them. The story that Sarah was full of prejudice & hatred against hagar may or my not be true. I do not believe it but it is written in bible. I do not believe that she was a selfish or ignorant lady. She was all pure and good lady. She did not turn out any one from the house. The inheritance business is all false. What inheritance was there? There was plenty of land and no problem at all. (More in next post)
 
 


Edited by minuteman - 29 September 2008 at 5:53am
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 29 September 2008 at 7:20am
 
  Cont...d.
 
 Allah was pleased with Abraham and gave him a promised son, Ishamel, the first born of Abraham. When Abraham offered Ishmael for sacrifice, Allah was all the more pleased with Abraham and granted  him another son, Issac.
Issac was not born when the incident of sacrifice took place. Issac could not be sacrificed as it was told to Abraham before his birth that he will be a prophet.  When Allah told Abraham a.s. taht Issac will be a prophet then it would be wrong to tell him to sacrifice Issac.
 
  Abraham settled both his sons far away from each other. One in Arabia and hother in Kana'an. There was great wisdom in doing that. Whereas, the children of Issac had to undergo slavery and  foreign occupation, the children of  Ishmael had no such problem. Specially when the prophet s.a.w.s. was born and his mission started, there was no king nearby and no police to disturb the prophet, as it happened in the case of Isa a.s. in Kan'a'an.
 
 That was the divine plan started thousands of years before the advent of the last prophet and for the survival of his mission. Al Hamdu Lillah.
 
 The life of Ishmael a.s. was spared for the sake of greater sacrifices to be offered by the Sahabah of the rasool Allah. The Sahabah gave their lives in the way of Allah like sheeps and goats, in large numbers. That was the ransom. The Ram which was offered by Abraham a.s. was not the ransom. 
If any one is bad some one must suffer
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Quote robin Replybullet Posted: 27 October 2008 at 1:44pm
"Abraham offered Ishmael for sacrifice."
 
You are not telling the Truth!!
 
No he did not:-
 
Genesis 22:1-2
Now after these things it came about that the [true] God put Abraham to the test. Accordingly he said to him: "Abraham!" to which he said: "Here I am!" 2 And he went on to say: "Take, please, your son, your only son whom you so love, Isaac, and make a trip to the land of Mo·ri´ah and there offer him up as a burnt offering on one of the mountains that I shall designate to you."
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