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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
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bronaz
 
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Quote bronaz Replybullet Posted: 25 May 2013 at 9:45pm
First as I mentioned IF Quran is the word of God each Ayat should stand on its own merits...You have mentioned other portions of your holy Book to state that the will of the person determines whether he gets heaven or hell. But Sura 14:4 clearly mentions that Allah sends Astray whom he wills. You acknowledge the will of Allah as being supreme, so then what is the will of man in the face of Allah who can deem to send you astray and to hell. Is there any guarantee that a Muslim is not being led astray by Allah? What is the assurance that you have that Allah will not lead you astray? When a muslim says Ishallah doesnt it mean that the will of Allah be done? What if Allah has willed that you be led astray?
In any case the Ayats that you quoted contradict what is said in Sura 14.4, so which part is true...and If One part is false then the Quran can in no way be the Word of God















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Quote nothing Replybullet Posted: 26 May 2013 at 6:40pm
Originally posted by bronaz

And We did not send any messenger except [speaking] in the language of his people to state clearly for them, and Allah sends astray [thereby] whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

The above is from Sura  14:4
My question is this...If Allah sends  someone Astray he is directing him  towards hell. We all have free choice...but  the will of God overrides  it  in some matters eg  life, death etc. When Allah predestines to lead someone  astray...he is setting him on a path to HELL. That would be unusual for a God to do..because the very purpose of a holy book is to guide people  to heaven.

Allah guide to goodness while Satan sent astray. But in Islam Satan only able to do that because God gave him permission. Hence Allah sent them astray. Everything from God, good or bad.

Seeing the Qur'an and theology in general from Wahdatul wujud perspective is bit easier.

------------------------------------------------------------

He said: O Iblis! What hindereth thee from falling prostrate before that which I have created with both My hands? Art thou too proud or art thou of the high exalted?(38:75)

He said: I am better than him. Thou createdst me of fire, whilst him Thou didst create of clay.
(38:76)

He said: Go forth from hence, for lo! thou art outcast,
(38:77)

And lo! My curse is on thee till the Day of Judgment.(38:78)

He said: My Lord! Reprieve me till the day when they are raised.
(38:79)

He said: Lo! thou art of those reprieved
(38:80)

Until the day of the time appointed.
(38:81)

He said: Then, by Thy might, I surely will beguile them every one, (38:82)
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Quote bronaz Replybullet Posted: 27 May 2013 at 9:01am
The Christian view is that God permits Satan to tempt but provides all the resources to overcome and conquer temptation.
In this Sura 14:4 it clearly mentions he sends astray whom he wills and guides those he wills...According to my understanding The Quran shouild be a guide for all not just some. There is a matter of justice here...allowing a person to be tempted is one thing as long as there is divine help. But there seems to be no divine help for some who are doomed
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Quote Usmani Replybullet Posted: 27 May 2013 at 11:31am

let's read the Quran in context so that we can better understand what this verse (14:4) is saying

Surah 33:67

And they say: Our Lord! Lo! we obeyed our princes and great men, and they misled us from the Way.

Surah 61:5

So when they turned away (from the Path of Allah) Allah turned their hearts away (from the Right Path) and Allah guides not the people who are fasiqun (rebellious, disobedient to Allah)."

 So we see that Allah misguides those wrongdoers who are truly misguided by their own actions that they willingly chose to commit. Allah is omniscient and therefore knows in advance what their FREE WILLED actions will be. Therefore, Allah misguides them. HOWEVER, Allah only misguides those who WILLINGLY commit wrong and have earned to be labeled as disbelievers and go to Hell.

Engage your self in good deeds,otherswise yours nafs will engage you in bad deeds
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Quote NABA Replybullet Posted: 27 May 2013 at 10:23pm
in Surah Al Ibrahim ch 14 v 2-Allah,to which heavens and earth belongs will give severe punishment to disbelievers,as I said so many times in my previous posts,that Allah has granted us free will whether to worship him or not,if any person make an effort to know about Islam,in Sha Allah will guide him,as said in Surah Al Ankaboot ch 29 v 69-if U strive in the way of Allah,Allah will open pathways for you,the main thing is the intention in your heart,if someone is offering prayers,doing good deeds without good intentions,his deeds are of no use,that verse is meant for those who don't want to follow commandments of Allah intentionally,if U make effort in the path of Allah,Allah will guide you.the assurance is that if we offer prayers regularly,doing regular charity and good deeds with right intentions,then in Sha Allah we cannot be deviated from right path,Allah has assured a reward for all believing men and women in Surah Al Ahzaab ch 33 v 35.the main thing is patience,Allah wants us to strive in his way with patience.Allah says in surah Al Asra ch 103 v 1-3-With the token of time man is in state of loss except those who have trust in Allah,do good deeds,resorting people to truth,resorting people to patience and perseverance.

Edited by NABA - 27 May 2013 at 10:29pm
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Quote bronaz Replybullet Posted: 28 May 2013 at 2:51am
Dear NABA and Usmani....we keep on trying to explain sura 14.4 with references to other parts of the Quran. Let me explain to you my understanding of the word of God...which Quran claims to be....Gods word creates...When God created something...he did not come back later and say that I should not have created that. The word of God each part of it should stand on its own merit. A descriptive passage may be open to interpretation but his word cannot be changed and should be free from any contradiction. Sura 14.4 states very clearly he leads astray who he wills...Every Muslim uses the word Inshallah...meaning if it is the will of God/Allah. If it is his will to lead you astray...what can you do about it....
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Quote NABA Replybullet Posted: 29 May 2013 at 10:31pm

But if U R in constant touch with Allah,Allah will never cause harm to you,yes we might at times think y our prayers are not answered,but Allah never foresakes prayers it takes lot of faith and patience to get our prayers answered,as mentioned in Surah Al Ghaafir ch 40 v 60-Allah says-"call me I will respond to you",those who r refrained from my worship,they will go to hell.so one should pray constantly to get his prayers answered,we say In Sha Allah because we can't predict any future,for eg tomorrow I had to go to any place,and if I just say I will reach it definitely,then it means I m predicting future which is wrong,instead I say in Sha Allah and pray to Allah constantly to reach my destination,and Allah is never unjust to his believers,I will end with the translation of Hindi phrase in india-there is delay from God but not darkness,but we should say Allah answers our prayers at right time,we should not judge the timing of Allah

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Quote bronaz Replybullet Posted: 30 May 2013 at 12:58am
NABA... Your belief is contrary to what is written in the Ayat which I have quoted. You say Allah is Just and that he answers prayers...but Sura 14.4 says he sends astray whom he wills.
IF Quran is word of God then we have to take literally that some people Allah sends astray whom he wills...it does not say he sends astray those who do not follow the path laid down in the Quran, or disbelieves in Mohammed...it says who he wills which can mean anyone Even a MUSLIM.
If you wish to further clarify then that would mean that the Word of God as stated in the Quran is ambiguous and open to interpretation which would then call into question the whole book
If you state that this verse is abrogated by another later verse, then you admit there is a contradiction, and my understanding is that there can be no contradiction in the Word of God.
This leads me to conclude that Quran being called the Word of God is called into doubt and hence your faith as well.

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