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Hamza Andalucia
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Quote Hamza Andalucia Replybullet Topic: Anyone been to Andalucia
    Posted: 15 May 2013 at 7:19am
Asalaamu'alaikum Wr Wb

I just want to know how many people out there have been to Andalucia, Spain? My family and i have been running tours to Spain for the past 12 years and i'm intrigued to know how many people out there have actually been and how many people know about the rich history of Islam in Spain. We have many people who say we did not know that Spain used to be a muslim country even though Islam was there for nearly 800 years (711-1492). I would also like to hear from anyone that has been on one of our tours

www.islamic-spain.com
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Matt Browne
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Quote Matt Browne Replybullet Posted: 20 May 2013 at 9:44am
Yes, twice. Malaga, Seville, Cordoba, Granada. I think the Alhambra is one of the most beautiful buildings in the world.

We should not forget that Spain was taken by force and the Muslim rulers treated non-Muslims like second-class citizens. Their system is not a good model for the modern world.

A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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Hamza Andalucia
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Quote Hamza Andalucia Replybullet Posted: 20 May 2013 at 1:37pm
Hi Matt. Yes I would agree with you Alhambra is one of the most beautiful buildings in the world.
But when you say taken by force it gives the impression huge armies came over and killed and pillaged and forcefully converted people which if you take a logical look at history simply isn't true. In fact there was one major battle and the rest of the country was taken relatively peacefully. When a city would fall the terms of surrender were so just and fair that the other cities would pretty much open the gates. An original of one of the peace treaties still exists in which the Christian governor is even allowed to remain There were some skirmishes and small battles but nothing major.
It was a divided land of rival kingdoms and principalities when the Muslims arrived, it never existed as one single entity until 17th/18th century.
In fact it was the Christian King Julian of Ceuta who asked the Muslim governor of Africa to help him take revenge against King Roderick who had raped Julians daughter in Toledo. During the battle Julians army switched sides and helped the Muslims defeat Roderick.
At the time of the Muslim conquest the Jews were being persecuted, on the verge of being wiped out actually, along with the unitarians and the general population were virtual slaves whereby they owned nothing and had very few freedoms. Its because their situation improved after the Islamic conquest that there was no uprisings or attempts to throw the Muslims out. Remember there were no large numbers of Muslims flocking to Spain it was very few men which came in the initial crossing. Europe was not the place to be at that time. So it was one thing to take the land but then to hold onto it would have been virtually impossible with the small numbers of Muslims. If the local population was not happy with the situation they would have managed to overthrow their 'occupiers' sooner or later.
I think it was Rheinhardt Dozy who said the Islamic conquest of Spain was a force of liberation.

Yes in some ways the local non Muslim population were treated like second class citizens but in relative terms the freedoms and rights given to them were unheard of especially in Europe.
We all know what happened 750 odd years later after fall of Granada in 1492. I would take being a so called second class citizen anytime.
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Matt Browne
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Quote Matt Browne Replybullet Posted: 07 June 2013 at 4:01am
Hi Hamza: I didn't say that Christian rulers were better in the past. I reject all forms of tyranny and imperialism. Until recently South Africa had had an apartheid system similar to the one in Islamic Spain. Whatever the criteria, this is wrong, whether is skin color, religion or gender.

Today, majority Christian countries are democracies based on equal rights. Today, many majority Muslim countries treat non-Muslims as second-class citizens, e.g. Saudi Arabia. They even treat women as second-class citizens. A cow in Switzerland has more rights than a woman in Saudi Arabia.

It is important that we don't communicate Islamic Spain as a tolerant society and a model for today's Islamic countries. I would rather point to Turkey and Indonesia, although the influence of dogmatic Islam is getting stronger.

Islamic Spain was a product of the thinking of the past. It produced great architecture and it promoted science. Arabic texts were translated into Latin. But this is one part of the story. Dhimmitude is the other.

Imperialistic Britain was also a product of the thinking of the past. It produced the industrial revolution and scientific advancement. This is one part of the story. It also conquered Islamic Egypt and the British rulers treated the Egyptians as second-class citizens. They also build schools and hospitals (like the French imperialists before them). They improved the administration and other things. Still, it can't be a model for today. Today we believe in democracy and universal human rights.



Edited by Matt Browne - 07 June 2013 at 4:03am
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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