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Islam for non-Muslims
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islam for non-Muslims
Message Icon Topic: So called "Bad Muslims" Post Reply Post New Topic
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AhmadJoyia
 
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Quote AhmadJoyia Replybullet Posted: 14 October 2005 at 7:33am

Dear Sis firewall I am not very clear when you say "but i did found Quran verse supporting stoning as mentioned in my previous post." as which part of your previous post show this? If this is your evidence "....The Prophet said, "By Him in Whose Hands my life is, I will judge between you according to Allah's Book (Laws): As for the slave girl and the sheep, they are to be returned; & as for your son, he shall receive 100 lashes & will be exiled for 1 year. You, O Unais!" addressing a man from Bani Aslam, "Go tomorrow morning to the wife of this (man) & if she confesses, then stone her to death."The next morning Unais went to the wife and she confessed, & he stoned her to death.", and not from the Quran we have itself, then either we don't have the same Allah's Book or the narration is wrongly interpreted or this narration is just a fabrication. I don't know which out of these three possiblities you consider them to be true and which as 'false'?

 

 

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rahma2r
 
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Quote rahma2r Replybullet Posted: 14 October 2005 at 7:40am
Originally posted by YOUNG JEEZY

yo....I like the Muslim religion well i respect it and I am oriented about it...i know teh basics but i wasnt trying to be rude...mabye its just me i always go and ask questions to rough...its a great religion if people followed it...

but i was reading part of the Koran and it said "Jesus will come back and kill the swine and the crosses" dont you think that Jesus would have more stuff to worry about such as all the murderers, pollution, animals that kill innocent people and the curruption. I like to analyze things.

And Hitler wasn't Catholic by the way he was half jewish but he had his own little religion goin on

Thanks for clearing up alot of stuff I liked that Ferrari example

 

I dont mean to sound rude if any of you think that its just I wanna learn some new stuff thanks for takin the time

 

Hitler was a Christain

A good one is this from Mein Kampf:
 

    "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."


Another popular one is this, from a speech in 1922:
 

    "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter."

 

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rahma2r
 
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Quote rahma2r Replybullet Posted: 14 October 2005 at 7:44am
Originally posted by firewall

bismillahi rahmani raheem,

Sahih Bukhari, 9.091.365

Narrated Abu Huraira: While we were with Allah's Messenger, a bedouin got up and said, "O Allah's Messenger! Settle my case according to Allah's Book (Laws)." Then his opponent got up and said, "O Allah's Messenger! He has said the truth! Settle his case according to Allah's Book (Laws) and allow me to speak,"

He said, "My son was a laborer for this man & he committed illegal sexual intercourse with his wife. The people told me that my son should be stoned to death but I ransomed him with one-hundred sheep & a slave girl. Then I asked the religious learned people & they told me that his wife should be stoned to death & my son should receive 100 lashes & be sentenced to 1 year of exile.'

The Prophet said, "By Him in Whose Hands my life is, I will judge between you according to Allah's Book (Laws): As for the slave girl and the sheep, they are to be returned; & as for your son, he shall receive 100 lashes & will be exiled for 1 year. You, O Unais!" addressing a man from Bani Aslam, "Go tomorrow morning to the wife of this (man) & if she confesses, then stone her to death."The next morning Unais went to the wife and she confessed, & he stoned her to death.

I dont get it?

Y did the guy got away with it and the wife was killed?

can someone provide some info on it

please PM me

 

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Begbie
 
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Quote Begbie Replybullet Posted: 14 October 2005 at 8:13am
Originally posted by firewall

begbie, if you reject my thoughts simply bcoz u claim there are "no" specific Quran verse for stoning; then a conclusion u should reject is really ur own. coz as the fact goes -- there are no Quran verse rejecting stoning.
It depends on your viewpoint. Do you trust the book of god which clearly states the punishment for zina, or do you go with the dubious hadith and traditions of the times ?

Originally posted by firewall

even Sahih Hadeeths, you can't find a verse rejecting stoning.
There are plenty muslims around who reject the hadith you should understand their viewpoint.

Originally posted by firewall

so the truth is, ur conclusion has no supporting verse, thus its your conclusion that you should reject.


I reject it because I don't believe in any of it. But working with what's in front of me, it is still a very tenuous argument you make.

Originally posted by firewall

u might like to neglect it, but i did found Quran verse supporting stoning as mentioned in my previous post.


None of them are from the koram though are they (I only checked a couple of links.

Originally posted by firewall

following Allah's Laws, Rasulullah (PBUH) judged for married adulterers to be stoned. it is even recorded that stoning for married adulterers, has already been revealed in the Torah.
Oh well then, it's a done deal.

Originally posted by firewall

i'm sad that u have a wall around u that makes u neglects facts that u don't want to acknowledge. i can't break that wall, begbie & it's not really my job to spend my time breaking your wall.


If anyone has walls, it is yourself, you are surrounded by a wall of orthodoxy and dogma.

Originally posted by firewall

but i'm doing this to state the facts that i believe is twisted by you.


I am not twisting anything. I said my piece and that was that. How can you twist a fact anyway. The punishment for zina is clearly stated in the koran and it aint stoning.

Originally posted by firewall

still, wether u want to understand &
listen, that's ur own. wallahu a'lam... may Allah Help us seek truth.


I'm all for that.


But anyway, we can agree to disagree and let the matter rest.

Francis Begbie.

Edited by Begbie
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firewall
 
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Quote firewall Replybullet Posted: 14 October 2005 at 11:58pm
bismillahi rahmani raheem,

honestly, i'm sad how one cannot see i posted Quran, 4:59 & 24:51. clearly  these Quran verses revealed that Allah supported Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), that the Prophet enacted Allah's Laws. for Allah to support the Prophet, it must mean that, muslims must also look into the Prophet conducts, as to support our understanding of the Quran. when we differ about stoning in the Quran, we must look for our supporting basis in the Prophet's conducts. this is what Allah states in the Quran -- the verses are many & very clear.

Quran, 4:65. But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you (O Muhammad [PBUH]) judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.

so the crucial answer we must now find -- did the Prophet (PBUH), or did he not, enacted stoning?

answering this,
you will see why i presented the Saheeh Hadiths. these are records that the Prophet of Allah did enacted stoning. if you bring me records that the Prophet rejected stoning, insha Allah i'll reconsider. but i've found many reputable records confirming this judgement (as in last posts), & none rejecting it. so pls understand, for me, i don't have any basis to deny it, thus i believe.

i also read that stoning has been revealed by Allah since the days of Moses (its in the Torah). it was known by the Jews, by the Christians, by muslims. ask them wether Moses enacted stoning. I belive he does too. the trouble is, some people deny it this judgement.

pls understand, i'm here not to quarrel with you. Allah will Ask me on Judgement Day. & i don't have a basis to deny stoning, so pls.. i must say i believe. Allah will Asks you too, & you will answer too. all & all i don't want to misled people, so you can judge yourself. may Allah Help us seek Truth. may we understand, insha Allah.

wallahu a'lam.



to rahma2r, its because the man is single, the woman is married. unmarried person is judged by 100 lashes, married person is judged by stoning. wallahu a'lam.



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Quote Begbie Replybullet Posted: 15 October 2005 at 8:29am
Originally posted by firewall

honestly, i'm sad how one cannot see i posted Quran, 4:59 & 24:51clearly  these Quran verses revealed that Allah supported Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), that the Prophet enacted Allah's Laws.


I asked, very explicitly, what the punishment for zina is as stated in the quran. It is not stoning. My question has been answered. I am not interested in pursuing it.

Regards,

Francis Begbie.

Edited by Begbie
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AhmadJoyia
 
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Quote AhmadJoyia Replybullet Posted: 15 October 2005 at 8:45am

Thanks sis firewall for your reply. However, I couldn't understand your reply to answer my question especially once you say "clearly  these Quran verses revealed that Allah supported Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), that the Prophet enacted Allah's Laws." As we know that Allah's law is in Quran and its enaction is through Sunnah and not the other way around. So in such a mismatch situation, do you think  would it be justified to rely on such a hadith which may seem contradictory to Quran? How reliable the collection of hadith may be, but the basic rule of understanding of such human work must be understood within the context of Quran only. Secondly, the hadith are the "snap shots" of the events in Islamic history. They don't have all the associated supporting literature, other than from within the narrated hadith, that would show as when, where and in what conditons such a narration could have possibly been done. Hence, on this very limitation, all the scholars are very cautious about quoting ahadith without learning them through proper education from a reputed scholar. It is in this situation, that I would always refrain quoting from ahadith directly. In this very notion, do we know if the narration of event in this hadith is before or after the revelation of verses in Quran?

Thanks anyway for your efforts.



Edited by AhmadJoyia
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firewall
 
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Quote firewall Replybullet Posted: 15 October 2005 at 7:36pm
bismillahi rahmani raheem,

ok. if that's what ur answering to Allah, who am i to say. i know begbie will not understand this, even if i say it's in the Torah he doesn't understand the link between Torah, Quran & Hadeeths. so what he thinks is limited by his understanding.

i thank AhmadJoyia, for his efforts. but i'm sorry, if i use this rule, i'd have to question many islamic rituals also, which are also not specifically stated in the Quran but is in the Prophet's sunnah. i.e. the Quran tells to pray*.
but somehow, menstruating women do not have to pray*. if i use the contradictory rule, this does "seem" contradictory. but when we think deeper, taking into account both Quran & sunnah, it is not at all the case. thus creatively, there must be another rule of thinking to understand Islamic laws, which will judge: we all must pray*, but for menstruating women, she's not enjoined to until her period ends. this is the set of thingking i believe, which doesn't deny both the Quran & sunnah.

still to be safe, i refer this to Allah, maybe its a blessing -- & thank AhmadJoyia anyway. still, we all seek guidance from Allah. wallahu a'lam.


* 5 daily, obligatory prayers. but women can still du'a etc.




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