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|Topic: The Haj is shirk ?|
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Joined: 23 November 2010
Online Status: Offline
|Posted: 20 August 2013 at 4:58pm|
Originally posted by NABA
at experential God has no spirits!!!!at least I don't defame any religion in fact I show U the truth y don't U answer my query regarding book of genesis initial chapters??moreover Allah forbids us to defame other religions in ch 6 v 108,hence at least I will not do this.
What do you mean God has no spirits? I don’t know what you are talking about.
You say you show me the truth. No Naba - I show you the truth.
I thought I answered your question about Genesis the initial chapters. If you repeat your question I will be happy to discuss this with you.
This forum is for people from different religions to discuss. If you think my views on the truth are defaming your religion – too bad. I have made some very good points and asked some good questions. I have tried to be polite. When Muslims cannot answer they become like babies and say “you are defaming Islam”.The inability of Muslims to discuss logically and not emotionally is part of the reason the Muslim world is still in the primitive ages.
Edited by Experiential - 20 August 2013 at 5:01pm
Joined: 02 March 2012
Online Status: Online
|Posted: 20 August 2013 at 9:30pm|
Originally posted by AbuKhalid
Hello Caringheart and everyone! Thx for the welcome, and yes I am actually new,
You do you realize that there is absolutely zero archeological evidence to support the stories told regarding Abraham and the Ka'aba?
What kind of evidence are you looking for? Given its place in the desert, where few brave ones treaded ... yes, its hard to find evidence. It has been an Isolated place.
Nevertheless, it has been documented:
"Diodorus Siculus was a Greek historian of 1st century BC who wrote Bibliotheca Historica, a book describing various parts of the discovered world. The following lines are the English translation of Greek quoted by Gibbon from the book of Diodorus Siculus (Diodorus of Sicily) describing the 'temple' considered to be the the holiest in the whole of Arabia."And a temple has been set-up there, which is very holy and exceedingly revered by all Arabians." [Translated by C H Oldfather, Diodorus Of Sicily, Volume II, William Heinemann Ltd., London & Harvard University Press, Cambridge, Massachusetts, MCMXXXV, p. 217.]
G E von Grunebaum says: "Mecca is mentioned by Ptolemy, and the name he gives it allows us to identify it as a South Arabian foundation created around a sanctuary." [G E Von Grunebaum, Classical Islam: A History 600-1258, George Allen & Unwin Limited, 1970, p. 19]
So we know its older than the Christian era. Apart from this, The Quran which doesnt contain mistakes relate this. The bible also, although afflicted by some changes does a good job relating this place:
Refer to Genesis 21:17-22. V21 say he lived in paran and
then read Isiah 42 ... when you reach verse 11, you'll see that this is the place where Ishmael's decendents live
but the best description of paran is in Deu 33:2 which is south of Sinai
Just a side point, if you are so interested in archeology .. you might want to look into why the bible descrbes a worldwide flood when archaeological facts say its local! a mistake which the Quran doesnt have.
To conclude my response to you caringheart, let me just say that the Kaaba is a mosque, that Muslims pray TOWARDS, and NOT to, and Islam declares worship is for the One true God ... my God and Yours ... HE is Allah
The stories in the Bible are well backed up by archaelogical evidence confirming people and places, whereas there is no archaeological evidence to back up the stories of the quran connecting Abraham with Mecca. That's all I'm saying.
There is no question that Mecca was a place of pilgrimage... for the pagans.
As regards the flood story... every religious tradition has a flood story, so how do you account for this? I say, either one of two things...
1. There was a worldwide flood (not the one I adhere to)
2. People all across the globe originated from a common place (consistent with the Bible) and then spread out to the world therefore carrying the flood story with them. Bible fallacy? I don't know. It is just possible that people used the only words that they had... and to them perhaps their 'whole world' was flooded so that is how it came to be recorded. I can see how this story would have been one that was embellished. Have you ever really believed that every animal of the earth could be collected into a single ark for 40+ days and nights, without seeking to kill one another? Lions with giraffes and such? And what about water animals, like Hippo's and alligators? It is quite conceivable that God only warned that there would be a great flood and for Noah to build an ark and take into it everything that he would need to sustain his family. This amazing story of survival would easily have grown into a tall tale by years of its re-telling by oral tradition, would it not?
I don't know that anything has ever been able to be proven one way or the other, as it goes, regarding the flood. I'm pretty sure it is still an open question.
I do believe that the Ka'aba is today, a mosque, that muslims pray towards. I do not believe that Abraham ever had anything to do with it though.
Salaam and blessings to you,
Edited by Caringheart - 20 August 2013 at 9:34pm
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
Joined: 18 August 2013
Online Status: Offline
|Posted: 20 August 2013 at 11:07pm|
Mythical inventions? I think the Muslim version of the Kaaba corresponding to the centre of the universe and the ridiculous idea of al-Hajaru-l-Aswad falling from heaven to show Adam where to build an alter is the ridiculous mythical invention.
Your claim of "mecca being center of universe" is from some Egyptian scientist who did some research recently. There are no Islamic Text (i.e quran/hadith) about this.
It is proven that the hajar al aswad is not a piece of rock from this world. It is not mentioned in the Quran but in the hadith which say that it was bigger and white ... when it entered this world it became smaller and black! NASA confirms its not from earth and mentions its a meteorite. So again, it is a fact that the hajar aswad is not from this earth, accurately decribed in the hadith 1400 yrs ago. What myths?
The origins of Haj? Yes, its origins are about superstitious pagans walking in seven circles around a meteorite.
My friend, with all due respect, you have a lot to learn about Islam before you speak against it with your claims. In fact, you have no proofs for that claim ... First of all, circuambulation has nothing to do with hajr aswad excpt it mark the beginning and its end. In Islam, hajj rites precede the pagan era and goes all the way to Abraham and Ismael after they built the kaba, peace be upon them. After time, people deviated and joins idols along in worship and modified the rituals ... The trend of deviation is observable among humans in general, because they tend to break away from origins ... like what happend to Christians.
So, you will try to find some kind of claim that Kaaba wasnt built by Abraham .. let me tell you that the Quran is the Word of God and the truth! Even in the bible, we can have some hints of that ... I can expand on that upon request
Up to no good.? What is the no good? To challenge superstition or to search for truth.its no good when you bring arguments from ignorance, acting as if what you have is true. I call you to rectify your intentions and not to deceive yourself by seeking any and every bit of info against Islam from missionary ET AL websites. Rather, if you dont know, just say so I'm sure you will obtain the correct info about Islam, after which, you can decide what to do with it yourself.
Edited by AbuKhalid - 20 August 2013 at 11:14pm
Joined: 13 December 2012
Online Status: Offline
|Posted: 21 August 2013 at 7:21am|
so could U repeat the answer plz??bcoz few days ago some of our posts have been deleted,moreover could U explain this to me about what does this mean gospel of mark ch 16 v 17-18-if they drink the deadly thing they shall not b hurt.
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