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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: The Haj is shirk ? Post Reply Post New Topic
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Experiential
 
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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 16 August 2013 at 10:13pm
Originally posted by submitter

Kaabah being house of demons or pagan rock is your opinion and others; as unbelievers. But it is unfair to make such judgement as 'Temple in Jerusalem' too was the house of pagan worshipping in the past.

~~
The tradition of Ishmaelites relying upon well of Zamzam in the city of Mecca is well known among the Jews living in Arabia for centuries.

Rabbi Abraham Ibn Ezra the great Jewish sage identifies the well mentioned by Hagar in Genesis 16:14 with Zimum (or in other versions, Zimzum), "where the Arabs hold an annual festival. This is Zamzam near Mecca.

"Genesis 16:14 "She called the well Be'er Lachai Roi It is between Kadesh and Bered."

This well is located approximately 20m east of the Kaaba (from today'ss measurement) and indeed it was the source of life for both Ishmael and Hagar before.

There is also ancient Samaritan Jews book (Asatir) in 3rd century BC having the tradition that Ishmael (pbuh) and his son built Bakkah several years after the death of Abraham (pbuh).

Regarding the Kaabah being house of demons. At times the Israelites fell backwards to paganism and worshiped Ashtoreth poles and sacred  rocks like Al-Ħajaru l-Aswad. However you are not correct in saying that the Jewish Temple was ever used by the Jews for pagan worship.

 

What does Ishmaelite mean ? History is not clear who the Ishmaelites are.

The Torah documents Abrahams travels, and it is clear Abraham, Sarah, Hagar, Isaac and Ishmael did not travel west from Babylon through the deserts to Mecca.

Abraham traveled from Babylon, north west up the Tigris and Euphrates river valleys to Mari, Paddan- Aram, Haram and then south down the Mediterranean coast to Israel.

They did not go to Mecca.

 

Also the Torah is clear that Ishmael settled in Paran and married an Egyptian from whom he had twelve sons: Genesis 21:13-21

The Torah locates Paran near Israel (Canaan) and Egypt, south of Judah and also tells us where Ishmael's sons settled. Which was not Mecca.

Genesis 25:12-18.

The Torah was written 2000 years before the Quran so because of this the Torah is more reliable than the Quran.

 

The discussion about Ishmael is pointless any way considering he was the Son of Hagar the slave woman. Gods purpose was not with the slave woman but with the free woman Sarah and her son Isaac.

Genesis 16:12  says Ishmael will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers."

 

Here is the verse from Genesis 16:14 you are referring to. It is a well known fact that the cities of Kadesh and Bered are in Israel. No where near Mecca.

 

I thought Muslims believe it was Abraham and his son Ishmael who rebuilt the Kaaba, not Ishmael and his son? Either Muslims or the writer of The Book of Asatir are confused.

The Book of Genesis which talks about Abraham, is 1100 years older than The Book of Asatir and Genesis does not say Ishmael built the Kaaba so why should I believe The Book of Asatir?

Also The Book of Asatir is not even part of the Torah, so again, why should I believe the  Book of Asatir?

 

Muslims are desperate to try to show the Torah and Injil as lining up with the Quran. But the fact is it does not.

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Quote NABA Replybullet Posted: 17 August 2013 at 7:38am
at experential,first of All tell me on what basis U say God can rest?,in the book of isiah ch 40 v 28-it is mentioned God is neither weary nor rested,it seems U R not well versed with ur own scriptures,Kaaba is the holy place,don't try to hurt sentiments by saying what U have mentioned in ur post,its a need of every Muslim to visit kaaba,its a desire of every Muslim to die near kaaba,if U don't like kaaba fine but at least don't disrespect it.Quran says Allah doesn't need rest in ch 2 v 255,Allah says in ch 6 v 108-Don't defame the other religions because in ignorance their followers will curse Allah.so we R not disrespecting ur religion in fact I m trying to show the truth from ur scriptures,eg regarding resting of God.
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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 17 August 2013 at 8:24pm
Originally posted by NABA

at experential,first of All tell me on what basis U say God can rest?,in the book of isiah ch 40 v 28-it is mentioned God is neither weary nor rested,it seems U R not well versed with ur own scriptures,Kaaba is the holy place,don't try to hurt sentiments by saying what U have mentioned in ur post,its a need of every Muslim to visit kaaba,its a desire of every Muslim to die near kaaba,if U don't like kaaba fine but at least don't disrespect it.Quran says Allah doesn't need rest in ch 2 v 255,Allah says in ch 6 v 108-Don't defame the other religions because in ignorance their followers will curse Allah.so we R not disrespecting ur religion in fact I m trying to show the truth from ur scriptures,eg regarding resting of God.

Hello Naba

When I say Gods Spirit rested on the Temple Naba I do not mean that God rested, slept  or relaxed. What I mean is that Gods Spirit settled or hovered around the Temple.

 

I am not out to hurt sentiments Naba. I am interested in truth. If the truth hurts you that is unfortunate.

Muslims defame other religions all the time Naba. I have seen Christianity defamed on this web site often.

 

This is an inter faith dialogue forum. What does that mean? It means people of different faiths will have different opinions. Or are you just wanting everyone of different religions to agree with you? Because that will not happen. If you cannot accept that, then perhaps you should not be posting here on an inter faith forum.

 
If you want to agree to disagree and end the discussion then I am fine with that.


Edited by Experiential - 17 August 2013 at 10:03pm
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Quote AbuKhalid Replybullet Posted: 19 August 2013 at 1:19pm
Experiental, when will you honestly research about Islam? no need to be deceptive in your approach ... these questions are mythical inventions and propagated by missionaries to catch the uneducated Muslims. They have been refuted

So you want to know why many rites in hajj are similar to pagans? If so, I have HW for you ... plz answer these questions below:

First of all, do you know the origins of hajj?
And second, do you know the purpose of the blackstone? its no regular stone. Like the ka'ba, its revered but not worshipped. So do you know its origins??

btw, tell your missionary anti islamic websites to get their facts straight, theyre teaching you the wrong things to ask muslims ... sorry, but only someone up to no good asks such questions. ANd its so silly because no Muslims have the beliefs about the claims u r making.

Edited by AbuKhalid - 19 August 2013 at 1:22pm
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 19 August 2013 at 8:55pm
Originally posted by AbuKhalid

Experiental, when will you honestly research about Islam? no need to be deceptive in your approach ... these questions are mythical inventions and propagated by missionaries to catch the uneducated Muslims. They have been refuted

So you want to know why many rites in hajj are similar to pagans? If so, I have HW for you ... plz answer these questions below:

First of all, do you know the origins of hajj?
And second, do you know the purpose of the blackstone? its no regular stone. Like the ka'ba, its revered but not worshipped. So do you know its origins??

btw, tell your missionary anti islamic websites to get their facts straight, theyre teaching you the wrong things to ask muslims ... sorry, but only someone up to no good asks such questions. ANd its so silly because no Muslims have the beliefs about the claims u r making.


Greetings AnuKhalid,
(and welcome, you appear to be new, or to me you are new anyway.)

You do you realize that there is absolutely zero archeological evidence to support the stories told regarding Abraham and the Ka'aba?

Salaam,
Caringheart

Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 20 August 2013 at 12:02am
Originally posted by AbuKhalid

Experiental, when will you honestly research about Islam? no need to be deceptive in your approach ... these questions are mythical inventions and propagated by missionaries to catch the uneducated Muslims. They have been refuted

So you want to know why many rites in hajj are similar to pagans? If so, I have HW for you ... plz answer these questions below:

First of all, do you know the origins of hajj?
And second, do you know the purpose of the blackstone? its no regular stone. Like the ka'ba, its revered but not worshipped. So do you know its origins??

btw, tell your missionary anti islamic websites to get their facts straight, theyre teaching you the wrong things to ask muslims ... sorry, but only someone up to no good asks such questions. ANd its so silly because no Muslims have the beliefs about the claims u r making.

Hello Abu Kalid and welcome to the forum.

Mythical inventions? I think the Muslim version of the Kaaba corresponding to the centre of the universe and the ridiculous idea of al-Hajaru-l-Aswad falling from heaven to show Adam where to build an alter is the ridiculous mythical invention.

 

If they have been refuted then lets hear it. I havnt heard anyone able to refute it.  

The origins of Haj? Yes, its origins are about superstitious pagans walking in seven circles around a meteorite. A rock, a piece of space junk. That’s all. And now Muslims follow the same ridiculous pagan mythical invention.

 

Up to no good.? What is the no good? To challenge superstition or to search for truth.



Edited by Experiential - 20 August 2013 at 4:15am
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Quote AbuKhalid Replybullet Posted: 20 August 2013 at 12:46am
Hello Caringheart and everyone! Thx for the welcome, and yes I am actually new,

You do you realize that there is absolutely zero archeological evidence to support the stories told regarding Abraham and the Ka'aba?


What kind of evidence are you looking for? Given its place in the desert, where few brave ones treaded ... yes, its hard to find evidence. It has been an Isolated place.

Nevertheless, it has been documented:

"Diodorus Siculus was a Greek historian of 1st century BC who wrote Bibliotheca Historica, a book describing various parts of the discovered world. The following lines are the English translation of Greek quoted by Gibbon from the book of Diodorus Siculus (Diodorus of Sicily) describing the 'temple' considered to be the the holiest in the whole of Arabia."And a temple has been set-up there, which is very holy and exceedingly revered by all Arabians." [Translated by C H Oldfather, Diodorus Of Sicily, Volume II, William Heinemann Ltd., London & Harvard University Press, Cambridge, Massachusetts, MCMXXXV, p. 217.]

G E von Grunebaum says: "Mecca is mentioned by Ptolemy, and the name he gives it allows us to identify it as a South Arabian foundation created around a sanctuary." [G E Von Grunebaum, Classical Islam: A History 600-1258, George Allen & Unwin Limited, 1970, p. 19]

So we know its older than the Christian era. Apart from this, The Quran which doesnt contain mistakes relate this. The bible also, although afflicted by some changes does a good job relating this place:

Refer to Genesis 21:17-22. V21 say he lived in paran and
then read Isiah 42 ... when you reach verse 11, you'll see that this is the place where Ishmael's decendents live
but the best description of paran is in Deu 33:2 which is south of Sinai

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/search=Isaiah+42&version=NIV

Just a side point, if you are so interested in archeology .. you might want to look into why the bible descrbes a worldwide flood when archaeological facts say its local! a mistake which the Quran doesnt have.

To conclude my response to you caringheart, let me just say that the Kaaba is a mosque, that Muslims pray TOWARDS, and NOT to, and Islam declares worship is for the One true God ... my God and Yours ... HE is Allah
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Quote NABA Replybullet Posted: 20 August 2013 at 7:29am
at experential God has no spirits!!!!at least I don't defame any religion in fact I show U the truth y don't U answer my query regarding book of genesis initial chapters??moreover Allah forbids us to defame other religions in ch 6 v 108,hence at least I will not do this.
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