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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: The Haj is shirk ? Post Reply Post New Topic
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Usmani
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Quote Usmani Replybullet Posted: 16 June 2013 at 9:01am

Thanks Brother Mansoor for your valuable input. Quotation from Psalm 138:2 and the Prophet Muhammad (May God Bless Him) said on the topic in discussion has made things very much clear.

I hope that Experiential will also acknowledge it. Just talking bad about Islam does not make it bad. Every one of us has to face Almighty up there. Before it too late and just remain regret, correct our mistakes and join the truth. This must be the way forward.
Thanks
Engage your self in good deeds,otherswise yours nafs will engage you in bad deeds
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 16 June 2013 at 9:53pm
Just a quick question.
The black stone was one of the idols in the kabba when the pagans made their pilgrimages to worship... so it was most definitely a pagan idol... a thing of stone.

So why was it not gotten rid of with all the rest?

______________________________________

17 And ye have seen their abominations, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which were among them  (Deuteronomy)

28  ... wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell. (Deuteronomy)

19 Woe unto him that saith to the wood, Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach! Behold, it is laid over with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in the midst of it. (Habakkuk)

26 ... neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the Lord your God.  (Leviticus)
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 17 June 2013 at 1:36am
Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

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  Just in the same way he tried to appeal to the pagans by bowing to your rock that you still bow to today.

 

I told you categorically that we Muslims do not bow to any rock but you keep saying that. This is what you are. We are not hiding anything from our religion, everything is open. You can watch Kabba on 24 hours live telecast at TV.

 

  My Reply

 Read Psalm 138:2
I will bow down toward your holy temple and will praise your name for your love and your faithfulness, for you have exalted above all things your name and your word.

  In the previous Scriptures, all Prophets of GOD Almighty bowed down to Him, the Almighty, in the direction of His Holy Temple or House.  It's all over the Bible and outside the Bible.

 As to worshiping the Kaaba, we absolutely do not worship it.  The Prophet of Islam said that the spilling OF A SINGLE DROP OF BLOOD from a Believer is more dearer to Allah Almighty than the demolishing of the entire Kaaba.  In other words, a single drop of blood from a Muslim Believer is more dearer to Allah Almighty than the entire black cubic building:

 
"Demolishing the Kaaba completely is much more preferred to Allah Almighty than shedding the blood of a Believing Muslim."

 So it is not something we worship.  It is only a point and a direction that brings us together as one. 
 

There is a major difference here. Gods Spirit settled on the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. The Kaaba however was the resting place for pagan idols, Jinn and Demons.

 

You said  "Demolishing the Kaaba completely is much more preferred to Allah Almighty than shedding the blood of a Believing Muslim."

This surprises me considering Haj is one of the 5 pillars of Islam.



Edited by Experiential - 17 June 2013 at 1:38am
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Usmani
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Quote Usmani Replybullet Posted: 19 June 2013 at 2:17am
Greeting Caringheart,
 

The black stone came from heaven and it was never been worshiped by pagans. On the year 605 AD when pagans rebuilt/renovate the Kaaba, there was a dispute amongst the tribe leaders that who is going to fixed the black stone on its designated place. Finally Prophet Muhammad (Peace and blessing of God upon Him) place the black stone on its place while four leaders of tribes were holding it in curtain or something similar.After five years of this event, first revelation came to Prophet (Peace and blessing of God upon Him)

Prophet Muhammad (Peace and blessing of God upon Him) told that this stone came from heaven. It is also said that it was first arrive here at the time of Adam (Peace and blessing of God upon him) and when Prophet Ibrahim (Peace and blessing of God upon him) building the kaaba, Angel Jibraiel shows the black stone to Him.

This was the reason it is still here on Kaaba otherwise it will also gone with the 360 idols.

 
Logically speaking idols worshiper never worship the idols on it orignal form but they gave shape to it like human which have ears nose etc.and then worship it.Black stone never given this shape.
 
I heard that Jesus (Peace and blessing of God upon him) also there in similar shape in churches.Just want to confirm.


Edited by Usmani - 19 June 2013 at 2:44am
Engage your self in good deeds,otherswise yours nafs will engage you in bad deeds
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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 30 June 2013 at 4:18am

Yes the Black Stone was worshipped by pagans Usmani. See the link -

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Pagan_Origins_of_Islam

 

So what that Mohammed helped the pagans to decide where to place the stone?

And yes. I agree the rock did come from heaven. It fell from the sky as a meteorite. A dead lifeless hunk of rock. Nothing more.

To say it arrived at the time of Adam and that the Kaaba is the centre of the Universe is only a Muslim myth. There is noting in the Torah or Unjil to support this.

Mohammad knew it was important to his new religion to get the pagans on his side. That’s why he used the ??rock and Kaaba in his new religion.

 

You say logically speaking idol worshipers never worship the idols in its original form but they gave shape to it like human which have ears nose etc.

No that is not correct Usmani. Pagans worshipped all kinds of things. Rivers, sacred pools, statues that looked like humans or big rocks. It is all shirk. 

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Quote Rational Replybullet Posted: 03 July 2013 at 4:13am
Experiential are you christian?
الله
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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 03 July 2013 at 5:39am
Originally posted by Rational

Experiential are you christian?
Does it make any difference ? Yes I am.
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Quote Rational Replybullet Posted: 22 July 2013 at 10:59am
Did you just delete the posts??? For what reason exactly???

This is very suspensions! It seems that "Ron Webb" has some serious connections here! He lost the argument, didn't respond for 4 days and then just like that the posts are gone! Well well well...


Edited by Rational - 22 July 2013 at 11:06am
الله
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