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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: The Haj is shirk ? Post Reply Post New Topic
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 12 May 2013 at 7:14pm
Originally posted by Usmani

 Why we walk around Kaba firstly prophet(peace and blessing of God upon Him) order us to do so

 


Greetings Usmani,


I think this is the point being made... is this a prophet of God, or a false prophet... a man who, while trying to good, is in error?


Salaam,

CH

Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 13 May 2013 at 12:06am
Originally posted by NABA

prophet Muhammad was illiterate then how he could wrote such a flawless book.this is clearly mentioned in Surah Al Ankaboot ch 29 v 47-48.Moreover about the verses U mentioned,those were the ages of miracles.Jesus christ(pbuh) use to cure leprosy patients,used to revive dead people.how could he do this,he do this because of Allah.this is mentioned in bible.now,today is the age of science,that's y it is difficult to believe for some in those miracles.as far as rock is concerened,prophet Muhammad kissed it not bow down it,how it is possible because Allah forbids bowing down besides him in Surah Al Maidah ch 5 v 90,bowing down in front besides Allah is shirk which is unforgivable(ch 4 v 48,v 116).

So what if Mohammad was illiterate. This is no miracle. He recited to his friends who memorized it then later wrote it down (and later they all couldn’t agree on what Mohamed said). No miracle there. Also the Quaran is not flawless. It has many mistakes.

 

Age of miracles? Age of science ? Then Islam has no relevance to the now or the future. Besides I proved to you that Sura 21.30 was copied from the Bible. So then the Bible is the miracle book, not the Quran.

Also you haven’t mentioned the silly scientific impossibilities in the Quran. Do you really believe that –

 

King Solomon overheard a conversation between ants. This is scientifically impossible as ants use smell, not sound, to communicate !?

Sura 27:18-19

 

Or that reveals that the Sun sets in a muddy pool. !?

 Sura 18:85-86

 

The Qaran is full of contradictions and Mohammad was a man of contradictions.

Why did he kiss the rock idol?  He kissed it to please the pagans.

 

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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 13 May 2013 at 12:07am
Originally posted by nothing

Originally posted by Experiential

In English Koran can either be spelt
as 'Koran' or 'Quaran'. Anyway -
Khajar or Abraham never went to Arabia or Mecca. There is no history outside of the Quaran to prove it and the Bible never mentions they went to Mecca. And the Bible is centuries older than the Quaran so of course the older history is more reliable. The Quaran version is a myth and the Quaran has been produced by a human.

Actually Qur'an is a name, so it should not be translated. It is the fire of hate that change it. I don't write Bible as Buble. It is up to the concerned party to name his goods and the opposite party must use it as requested by the concerned party. But anyway, that is not what I was talking about.

In page 1 - did I mention that the story of Khajr was in the Qur'an? Read it again slowly if you have not, you will see it better.



As everyone on this forum communicates in English then it is the English spelling that is important. However as courtesy to you I will spell it Quran.

 

The Bible also mentions Abraham and Hagar (Khajr) and it mentions nothing about them going to Mecca.

It has nothing to do with what is better. It is about what is the most reliable.

The Bible is centuries older than the Quran so of course the older history is more reliable. The Quran version is a myth used by Mohammad to get the pagans on his side.

 

The Hajj is full of the old pagan religion. Even the spring of Zam zam and the hills of Safa and Marwa were important parts of the old pagan religion.



Edited by Experiential - 15 May 2013 at 12:07am
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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 13 May 2013 at 12:19am
Originally posted by Usmani

Quote:Walking around it 7 times just like the pagans did. Pointing at it and trying to kiss it just like the pagans did.

 

 Muslims did not walk around Hajar-e-Aswad,they walk around Kaba,yes Muslim pointing toward it because too many people around and it is not good to hurt people so we just point out towards hajar-e- Aswad and kiss our hand.

 

Brother if you really wish to learn about Islam, don’t think it is false religion at the first place. Study in depth and then decide. Things which help more in understanding Islam is your fairness of knowing the truth rather than how intelligent you are.

 

Why we walk around Kaba firstly prophet(peace and blessing of God upon Him) order us to do so and it a part of Hajj. Secondly there is a second place similar to Kaba (may be not facially but with same purpose) in the skies where angles are moving around it named “Batul Mamoor”God blessings are coming down from Batul Mamoor to Kaba.

 

Qoute:180 % ? Truth is all around and within. Why the direction finder ?

 

I mean oneself keep his back towards the truth any way you are absolutely correct, it is within but still people can’t find it. There are two hurdles and both are within as well.

 

Quote: So with his army behind him Muhammad had the courage to destroy 360 lesser idols but not the courage to destroy  the more important rock idol ?

 

I may be wrong but Hajar-e-Aswad was never the idol for pagans yes these 360 idols were belong to various tribes and they used to keep them in Kaba for worship.

 

Whether its walking around Hajar-e-Aswad or around Kaba 7 times is irrelevant. It is still the same pagan practice.

 

I am trying to be fair to the truth, however no one has been able to answer my concern that Islam is mixed with pagan religion.

Do you have an open mind to other religions?

 

You say you walk around Kaba firstly because your prophet ordered you do so and it a part of Hajj. That is a poor reason ? Are you just a blind follower and do things simply because you are told to do so?

In regards to there being a place in the skies where angles are moving around it named “Batul Mamoor” this just sounds like a nice story that Mohammad made up to keep the pagans and his new converts happy.

 
Yes I believe you are wrong about Hajar-e-Aswad Usmani. It was a pagan rock idol that was worshipped.
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Quote NABA Replybullet Posted: 15 May 2013 at 9:29am
at expereintial,whatever Prophet Mohammed(pbuh) told us is in direct relation with Qur'an I.e the order from Allah,when we do hajj we are exhibiting several things,first is Allah is one,then when we bow down in single direction(Surah Al baqarah ch 2 v 144),and also exihibits universal brotherhood(ch 49 v 13).by another example I can explain-our prophet said-doing sexual intercourse with ur wife is a charity,sahaba asked how its a charity?,then prophet replied-since U R not committing adultery,hence its a charity.this is in TRUE relation with verse Surah Al Israa ch 17 v 32-Allah forbids adultery.and y don't U give my explanation that Jesus(pbuh) cured leprosy patients and revive people from dead,even in bible several times Jesus(pbuh)says my father is greater than I and I di miracles only because of him,this truly shows that Allah is responsible for everything.in Surah Al Muminoon ch 23 v 12-14-Allah describes the developmental stage of human beings,how they evolve from a scum and acquires a leech like appearnce,years after this,this fact was established that human embryo acquires a leech like appearance in around 1970.i truly believe in Qur'an,because Qur'an is far superior than science,if u believe in hereafter u might b knowing that Allah can revive us from dead even from mere fingerprints,this is mentioned in Surah Al Qiyammah ch 75 v 3-4.
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Quote Usmani Replybullet Posted: 16 May 2013 at 4:33am

 

Quote:-I think this is the point being made... is this a prophet of God, or a false prophet... a man who, while trying to good, is in error?


 
Greetings CH
 
If yours all resarch and study sugguest as above then you have come to a incorrect conclusion,you are in error.
 
Which religion is free from shirk
Which religion is worsship God in the best way
 
By giving this beautiful religion what He got out of it,A lots of Problems only.The religion speaks it self that it could never be designed by a human.
 
Only thing is needed is the thurst of fining the truth and you will be there.
 
Regards,
Usmani
 
 


Edited by Usmani - 16 May 2013 at 4:34am
Engage your self in good deeds,otherswise yours nafs will engage you in bad deeds
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Quote Usmani Replybullet Posted: 16 May 2013 at 12:20pm

Quote:Whether its walking around Hajar-e-Aswad or around Kaba 7 times is irrelevant. It is still the same pagan practice.

 

Yes, there is some things those are similar to pagan practices as they also move around Kaba as Prophet Ismail (peace and blessing of God upon Him) stay here and built Kaba with his father Abraham (peace and blessing of God upon Him).They recognized God as Allah as we do.Islam has many similarities with Abrahimic faith and with people of the book. This religion (Islam) has been fine tuned by God and made it perfect for the rest of the humanity.

 

Quote: I am trying to be fair to the truth, however no one has been able to answer my concern that Islam is mixed with pagan religion.

 

I am trying to answer your concern.

 

Quote: Do you have an open mind to other religions?

 

Knowing about other religion was my passion. I have been to church, I have attended the Sunday gathering on church I had face to face discussions on religion with many other religion fellow members.I have spend quite a few time on it just for the search of truth only.

 

Qoute: You say you walk around Kaba firstly because your prophet ordered you do so and it a part of Hajj. That is a poor reason? Are you just a blind follower and do things simply because you are told to do so?

 

Yes I am, when we follow the instruction of doctor he say take this medicine, so do we inquiry about medicine? Once we have thrust on doctor we do not do these foolish things.

 

 

Quote: In regards to there being a place in the skies where angles are moving around it named “Batul Mamoor” this just sounds like a nice story that Mohammad made up to keep the pagans and his new converts happy.

 

There are hundreds of those stories in Islam by our Prohet (peace and blessing of God upon Him), only a true Prophet can come up with them

 

Quote:Yes I believe you are wrong about Hajar-e-Aswad Usmani. It was a pagan rock idol that was worshipped.

 

I will find out. There is something for you from Quran and Bible

 

Quran Says,

 

Verily, the first House (of worship) appointed for mankind was that at Bakkah (Makkah), full of blessing, and a guidance for the mankind. In it are manifest signs (for example), the place of Abraham.



The Bible also mentions about the valley of Baca in connection with the pilgrimage. Below is the quote from Psalms 84 (NIV):

1 How lovely is your dwelling place, O LORD Almighty!
2 My soul yearns, even faints, for the courts of the LORD; my heart and my flesh cry out for the living God.
3 Even the sparrow has found a home, and the swallow a nest for herself, where she may have her young-- a place near your altar, O LORD Almighty, my King and my God.
4 Blessed are those who dwell in your house; they are ever praising you.
5 Blessed are those whose strength is in you, who have set their hearts on pilgrimage.
6 As they pass through the Valley of Baca, they make it a place of springs; the autumn rains also cover it with pools.
7 They go from strength to strength, till each appears before God in Zion.
8 Hear my prayer, O LORD God Almighty; listen to me, O God of Jacob.
9 Look upon our shield, O God; look with favor on your anointed one.
10 Better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere; I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked.
11 For the LORD God is a sun and shield; the LORD bestows favor and honor; no good thing does he withhold from those whose walk is blameless.
12 O LORD Almighty, blessed is the man who trusts in you.

 

Engage your self in good deeds,otherswise yours nafs will engage you in bad deeds
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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 28 May 2013 at 12:47am
Originally posted by NABA

at expereintial,whatever Prophet Mohammed(pbuh) told us is in direct relation with Qur'an I.e the order from Allah,when we do hajj we are exhibiting several things,first is Allah is one,then when we bow down in single direction(Surah Al baqarah ch 2 v 144),and also exihibits universal brotherhood(ch 49 v 13).by another example I can explain-our prophet said-doing sexual intercourse with ur wife is a charity,sahaba asked how its a charity?,then prophet replied-since U R not committing adultery,hence its a charity.this is in TRUE relation with verse Surah Al Israa ch 17 v 32-Allah forbids adultery.and y don't U give my explanation that Jesus(pbuh) cured leprosy patients and revive people from dead,even in bible several times Jesus(pbuh)says my father is greater than I and I di miracles only because of him,this truly shows that Allah is responsible for everything.in Surah Al Muminoon ch 23 v 12-14-Allah describes the developmental stage of human beings,how they evolve from a scum and acquires a leech like appearnce,years after this,this fact was established that human embryo acquires a leech like appearance in around 1970.i truly believe in Qur'an,because Qur'an is far superior than science,if u believe in hereafter u might b knowing that Allah can revive us from dead even from mere fingerprints,this is mentioned in Surah Al Qiyammah ch 75 v 3-4.

You say when you do hajj you are exhibiting that Allah is one. How is doing the Hajj exhibiting that Allah is one when the pagans did the same thing?

 

You say to bow in a single direction exhibits universal brotherhood. Brother hood based around a pagan idol !

In regards to your  prophet said-doing sexual intercourse with ur wife is a charity, sahaba asked how its a charity?, then prophet replied-since U R not committing adultery, hence its a charity. this is in TRUE relation with verse Surah Al Israa ch 17 v 32-Allah forbids adultery.

So what are you exactly trying to communicate here ? ??

 

Yes Jesus did miracles. That is correct. So what? That is noting like the silly childish examples you are desperately trying so hard to find to prove that the Quran has ‘scientific miracles.’

 

Why have you not responded to my proof that Mohammad got Sura 21.30 from the Bible (Genesis Chapter 1) As this is obviously the case then the Bible is the miracle book – not the Quran.

 

Look at the silly childish stories in the Quran. Look at Sura 18:85-86 where the sun set into a muddy pond. Everyone knows this is scientifically impossible.

Or Sura 27:18-19 about Solomon hearing the ants talk. Science has proven ants do not talk but communicate through smell.

 

Here are some other st**id stories from the Quran –

Surah 37.6-8 where the stars were created by Allah as missiles to throw at the devils? In order to not let them eavesdrop on the heavenly council? Not exactly science. This is childish and ridiculous

 

Or the Golden Calf in Surah 20:85- 100 where a Samaritan helped the Israelites build the golden calf, and it mooed after coming out of the fire.

Actually Samaritans did not exist as a people until at least 1000 years after this time. Mohamed got his history wrong!

 

Who says only a true prophet could come up with ‘miracle scientific’ stories? Any science fiction writer or pagan witch doctor could do that.

Muslims are just trying to sell the Quran by pretending to see scientific miracles. Just like Mohammad  tried to sell the Quran by introducing stories with pagan and Jewish meanings to sell the Quran to pagans and Jews in his day.

 

You say the Qur'an is far superior than science but yet what the Quran says is only a fraction of what science has proven.. So the Qur’an is no longer authoritative.

 

Your argument that modern science proves the Qur’an actually destroys the authority of the Qur’an. There are scientific journals, books, and scientific papers that we could read to find out more than the Qur’an teaches on any subject.

 

So if we can learn more about one subject in the Qur’an by reading from science then why not other subjects too? How can Muslims claim that the Qur’an contains all the guidance mankind needs for living? Perhaps we need to read elsewhere? How do they know that the Qur’an teaches us all we need to know about God’s nature? Or about how he wants us to live? Perhaps they need to read elsewhere to get the full picture? And so on.

Your argument that "modern science proves the Qur’an" destroys the authority of the Qur’an.

 

 

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