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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: Will anyone defend Islam? Post Reply Post New Topic
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NABA
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Quote NABA Replybullet Posted: 08 July 2013 at 11:33pm
In ch 8 v 12-Allah is talking only to angels.U say that ch 9 v 29 urges people to war,war is never mentioned in that verse,U R taking wrong meaning,war means a fight with arms between nations or groups,logically speaking Allah says in ch 5 v 32(don't kill innocent human beings unless for murder or mischief),so in future verses the word fight will b only for those who cause harm or mischief,not for innocent beings,another eg of fight is a reporter through his article revolts against corrupt government,literally he is fighting but he is not causing harm,fight means to strive to victory,so U R taking wrong meaning of verses to prove urself right!!!mischief means any destruction,harm or injury.Allah in fact says how to argue with non Muslims in ch 16 v 125-invite to the way of lord with beautiful words and wisdom and argue with them in best possible peaceful manner.
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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 24 July 2013 at 10:21pm
Originally posted by NABA

In ch 8 v 12-Allah is talking only to angels.U say that ch 9 v 29 urges people to war,war is never mentioned in that verse,U R taking wrong meaning,war means a fight with arms between nations or groups,logically speaking Allah says in ch 5 v 32(don't kill innocent human beings unless for murder or mischief),so in future verses the word fight will b only for those who cause harm or mischief,not for innocent beings,another eg of fight is a reporter through his article revolts against corrupt government,literally he is fighting but he is not causing harm,fight means to strive to victory,so U R taking wrong meaning of verses to prove urself right!!!mischief means any destruction,harm or injury.Allah in fact says how to argue with non Muslims in ch 16 v 125-invite to the way of lord with beautiful words and wisdom and argue with them in best possible peaceful manner.

Sura 8 verse 12 is obviously talking about people.

 

“cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their head and strike off every fingertip of them."-

Sura (8:12)

 

In regards to Sura 9 chapter 29 if you think Im causing mischief will you ‘fight’ me until I become subject and pay the tribute tax ?

And how would you make me pay a tax? unless it was with a sword or gun.



Edited by Experiential - 24 July 2013 at 11:06pm
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Servetus
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Quote Servetus Replybullet Posted: 25 July 2013 at 7:13pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Now, is anyone interested in responding to this guy?


Well, it's a dirty job, but somebody has to do it. This Ramadan, as a gift to my Muslim friends, it might as well be me.
Originally posted by Ronson

All I can say is that if peaceful, ordinary Muslims would come out of hiding and actually condemn the jihadists who are attacking everything that moves, then maybe Christians wouldn't have to do it for them.


And all I can say is that if the Evangelical Christian Zionist types who seem to frequent Matt Slick's board would loosen their laconic tongues and condemn their own jihadists, sometimes in IDF uniforms, who, with comparative impunity, incinerate Palestinian children in the Gaza Strip with white phosphorus, who decimate a largely hapless Iraq with depleted uranium, and who stand by, as mute as they are mum, while war profiteers and others ransack the Treasury to finance their "crusade" (GW Bush's malapropism, correction, apropism) to make the Middle East safe for no-bid oil contracts and Israeli nuclear hegemony, then maybe Muslims wouldn't have to do it for them.



Serv
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Edited by Servetus - 25 July 2013 at 7:15pm
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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 25 July 2013 at 9:08pm
Originally posted by Servetus

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Now, is anyone interested in responding to this guy?


Well, it's a dirty job, but somebody has to do it. This Ramadan, as a gift to my Muslim friends, it might as well be me.
Originally posted by Ronson

All I can say is that if peaceful, ordinary Muslims would come out of hiding and actually condemn the jihadists who are attacking everything that moves, then maybe Christians wouldn't have to do it for them.


And all I can say is that if the Evangelical Christian Zionist types who seem to frequent Matt Slick's board would loosen their laconic tongues and condemn their own jihadists, sometimes in IDF uniforms, who, with comparative impunity, incinerate Palestinian children in the Gaza Strip with white phosphorus, who decimate a largely hapless Iraq with depleted uranium, and who stand by, as mute as they are mum, while war profiteers and others ransack the Treasury to finance their "crusade" (GW Bush's malapropism, correction, apropism) to make the Middle East safe for no-bid oil contracts and Israeli nuclear hegemony, then maybe Muslims wouldn't have to do it for them.



Serv
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Hello Servestus

The question here as posed at the beginning of the thread was whether there is violence inherent in the doctrines and theology of Islam itself. What secular governments may do out of secular motives is beyond the question.

So the question is whether Mohamad set a violent example as a war lord and  man of the sword. Also are their passages in the Quran that promote violence?

I challenge any one to show violence inherent in the life of Jesus and / or the New Testament.

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Quote Servetus Replybullet Posted: 26 July 2013 at 8:17am
Originally posted by Experiential

Hello Servetus


Hello in return, Experiential, and, in answer to Jimi Hendrix, yes, as a matter of fact, I am experienced. Standby, here's a little smiley face:   :)

Originally posted by Experiential

The question here as posed at the beginning of the thread was whether there is violence inherent in the doctrines and theology of Islam itself.


That is one of the points at issue, but not the only one. Moreover, the issue here does not restrict itself exclusively to a comparison of the (unapologetically martial) Islam vs. the (presumably but far from actually pacifistic) Christianity, but also includes the increasingly militant, avowedly expansionistic and colonizing Judaism, under its dominant nationalistic form of Zionism, which has its own, decidedly non-Christian, often ersatz, Messianic agenda in the Middle Eastern region and beyond.

Originally posted by Experiential

What secular governments may do out of secular motives is beyond the question.


Is it? I think the distinction you are drawing between secular and religious governments is a bit facile, especially if you point to the USA as a model of the former. Allow me to quote the late Senator George McGovern who, at the National Press Club, summed things nicely by quoting Bob Woodward and impertinently asking GW Bush:

"Mr. President, Sir, when reporter Bob Woodward asked you if you had consulted with your father before ordering our army into Iraq you said, "No, he's not the father you call on a decision like this. I talked to my heavenly Father above."(1)

Ref:
http://www.thenation.com/article/impartial-interrogation-george-w-bush#

Evidently, GW Bush's heavenly Father above -by means of a compliant, spineless Congress- gave him and his administration permission to invade and occupy Iraq and, perhaps in a larger PNAC-ian sense, permission to redraw the entire map of the Middle East. May we then, as GW Bush did, call that a "crusade" of sorts? Yes, we may.

Originally posted by Experiential

So the question is whether Mohamad set a violent example as a war lord and man of the sword. Also are their passages in the Quran that promote violence?


It seems to me that Muhammad would be better and more accurately compared to Joshua than to Jesus. Unlike Jesus, both Muhammad and Joshua were military commanders, whose kingdoms, ultimately, were of this world.

Originally posted by Experiential

I challenge any one to show violence inherent in the life of Jesus and / or the New Testament.


Christians are often closet jihadists - they hide out behind (and provide funds to) people in IDF uniforms, for instance. In any case, a significant difference between Christians and Muslims is this: that when we Christians go to war, which is often enough in our history, we have to largely disregard and ignore our prophet and his emasculating -as Nietzsche put it- Sermon on the Mount, but when Muslims do, they don't. Thus Christians, it seems to me and in this regard, are often considerably more hypocritical than Muslims.

Originally posted by Experiential

I challenge any one to show violence inherent in the life of Jesus and / or the New Testament.


Would you consider that here Nocholas Kristof, published in the New York Times, has risen to your challenge? Read him here:

"Jesus and Jihad"
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/17/opinion/jesus-and-jihad.html

Best regards,

Serv
Male (vestigial and often embarrassed) Christian


Edited by Servetus - 26 July 2013 at 8:25am
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 26 July 2013 at 4:00pm

Originally posted by Servetus

And all I can say is that if the Evangelical Christian Zionist types who seem to frequent Matt Slick's board would loosen their laconic tongues and condemn their own jihadists, sometimes in IDF uniforms, who, with comparative impunity, incinerate Palestinian children in the Gaza Strip with white phosphorus, who decimate a largely hapless Iraq with depleted uranium, and who stand by, as mute as they are mum, while war profiteers and others ransack the Treasury to finance their "crusade" (GW Bush's malapropism, correction, apropism) to make the Middle East safe for no-bid oil contracts and Israeli nuclear hegemony, then maybe Muslims wouldn't have to do it for them.

I don't often see allegations of Christian jihadism in mainstream press.  Maybe in Muslim nations, in which case it might be worthwhile for Christians to visit those sites; but I am commenting on the negative view of Islam in my own culture and suggesting that Muslims might want to speak up.  I'm getting tired of defending their reputations, especially if they can't be bothered themselves.

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 26 July 2013 at 4:07pm

Originally posted by Experiential

The question here as posed at the beginning of the thread was whether there is violence inherent in the doctrines and theology of Islam itself.

Well no, that wasn't my purpose in starting this.  I am taking it as given that Muslims do not consider Islam to be an inherently violent religion.  I am asking them to say that where it matters, -- not just here, but wherever their religion is being attacked.

It seems to me that this would be a worthy project for Ramadan.  But what do I know? Clown

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Servetus
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Quote Servetus Replybullet Posted: 26 July 2013 at 5:04pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

I don't often see allegations of Christian jihadism in mainstream press.


I just sent Experiential a link to an article in the rather mainstream New York Times, entitled "Jesus and Jihad." Read it often and you will.

But seriously, I grant that you might not see the two concepts, Christianity and jihad, or, for that matter, Judaism and jihad, very often linked in the mainstream press, but an astute reader, one who hasn't been too thoroughly brainwashed and thus gobsmacked by that same press, ought to be able to link the two concepts himself and read between the lines.

Although the word, jihad, isn't overtly mentioned, here, and though it is a bit dated, is another example of many an article of its type which could be cited as proof. It is another mainstream media report, appearing in the New York Times, this time of cleric John Hagee having gone up to Washington D.C. to inform us of what "God's foreign policy" is. It should not be too surprising to note that, to him, God's policies and those of AIPAC are essentially indistinguishable. AIPAC, in consequence of the good Christian's announcements, has practically beatified the passively militant cleric. If you want to read the fatwah, it is here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/14/washington/14israel.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0


Serv
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Edited by Servetus - 26 July 2013 at 5:07pm
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