Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: Will anyone defend Islam? Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 8
Author Message
AbuKhalid
Male Islam
Starter.
Starter.
Avatar

Joined: 18 August 2013
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7
Quote AbuKhalid Replybullet Posted: 18 August 2013 at 11:29pm
The Jizya tax – protection? You mean ‘protection’ like that of a gang demanding


Deu 20:10 "And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, [that] all the people [that is] found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee. And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it"

So the christians have it too. Muslims pay taxes as well as non muslims. In an Islamic state, We have the zakaat and the jizya. There are exemptions as in all taxes ... so jizya is not required for monks/priests, women and children and those who are old / poor etc.

Look, any country you go to there is some kind of tax ... Federal, state, municipal, provincial whatever it is ... and the Goverment will come after you if you dont pay the tax... as simple as that.

Your comparing it to gang like protection makes no sense ... thats what all taxes look like. If you dont pay them, you are punished. When you do, you get some benefits ... in the case of Jizya, you dont do military service.

Also ... I'm not sure how the word "protection" came about and is being misused here.
IP IP Logged
Servetus
Male Christian
Senior Member
Senior  Member


Joined: 04 April 2001
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2109
Quote Servetus Replybullet Posted: 19 August 2013 at 7:45am
I am out of this discussion for some time, having to pay more attention to what St. Paul, in his letter to Timothy, called filthy lucre (money) than I might otherwise like, but ...

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Bush himself always gave entirely secular justifications for his Middle East policies and actions.


I repeat an excerpt from my above post of 26 July in which I quote the late Senator George McGovern's address to the National Press Club:

"Mr. President {G.W. Bush}, Sir, when reporter Bob Woodward asked you if you had consulted with your father before ordering our army into Iraq you said, "No, he's not the father you call on a decision like this. I talked to my heavenly Father above."

Ref:
http://www.thenation.com/article/impartial-interrogation-george-w-bush#

Serv

Edited by Servetus - 19 August 2013 at 7:47am
IP IP Logged
Ron Webb
Male Humanism
Senior Member
Senior  Member


Joined: 30 January 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1496
Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 19 August 2013 at 7:35pm
Originally posted by Servetus

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Bush himself always gave entirely secular justifications for his Middle East policies and actions.

I repeat an excerpt from my above post of 26 July in which I quote the late Senator George McGovern's address to the National Press Club:

"Mr. President {G.W. Bush}, Sir, when reporter Bob Woodward asked you if you had consulted with your father before ordering our army into Iraq you said, "No, he's not the father you call on a decision like this. I talked to my heavenly Father above."
If the best you can do is to quote a Democrat (mis)quoting Bush, then you must already know you're on shaky ground.
 
I don't believe Bush ever said that.  I think McGovern was deliberately distorting the following passage (with emphasis added):
Having given the order, the president walked alone around the circle behind the White House. Months later, he told Woodward: "As I walked around the circle, I prayed that our troops be safe, be protected by the Almighty. Going into this period, I was praying for strength to do the Lord's will. I'm surely not going to justify war based upon God. Understand that. Nevertheless, in my case, I pray that I be as good a messenger of his will as possible. And then, of course, I pray for forgiveness."
 
Did Mr. Bush ask his father for any advice? "I asked the president about this. And President Bush said, 'Well, no,' and then he got defensive about it," says Woodward. "Then he said something that really struck me. He said of his father, 'He is the wrong father to appeal to for advice. The wrong father to go to, to appeal to in terms of strength.' And then he said, 'There's a higher Father that I appeal to.'"
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
IP IP Logged
Servetus
Male Christian
Senior Member
Senior  Member


Joined: 04 April 2001
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2109
Quote Servetus Replybullet Posted: 20 August 2013 at 7:38pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

If the best you can do is to quote a Democrat (mis)quoting Bush, then you must already know you're on shaky ground.


On the contrary, I think that you are quibbling. Senator McGovern was paraphrasing G.W.Bush and I think he was accurate in the part of his speech which I quoted and brought forward.

To wit:

"Mr. President {G.W. Bush}, Sir, when reporter Bob Woodward asked you if you had consulted with your father before ordering our army into Iraq you said, "No, he's not the father you call on a decision like this. I talked to my heavenly Father above."{Senator McGovern}


In contrast:

"Did Mr. Bush ask his father for any advice? "I asked the president about this. And President Bush said, 'Well, no,' and then he got defensive about it," says Woodward. "Then he said something that really struck me. He said of his father, 'He is the wrong father to appeal to for advice. The wrong father to go to, to appeal to in terms of strength.' And then he said, 'There's a higher Father that I appeal to.'"{CBS per Ron Webb}


The strength to do what, exactly? The Lord's will? Where did that lead him and us? I don't think that Senator McGovern was too far afield to conclude that Bush, according to his own admission, appealed to his Heavenly, or "higher" Father for the strength to destroy Fallujah, Iraq, with, among other things, depleted uranium (which was one of the net results of his invasion).

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Bush himself always gave entirely secular justifications for his Middle East policies and actions.


Sorry. That doesn't sound very secular to me and veteran Washington reporter Bob Woodward was reportedly struck by something in that exchange. But anyway, even if Bush did always give entirely secular justifications, how does that solve anything? Are secular crusades to make the Middle East safe for no-bid oil contracts and Israeli nuclear hegemony somehow more justifiable, in your opinion, than religious ones? I, personally, think crusades, by any other name, even a secular one, smell as foul.

Serv

Edited by Servetus - 20 August 2013 at 7:48pm
IP IP Logged
Ron Webb
Male Humanism
Senior Member
Senior  Member


Joined: 30 January 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1496
Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 22 August 2013 at 9:06pm

Originally posted by Servetus

The strength to do what, exactly? The Lord's will? Where did that lead him and us? I don't think that Senator McGovern was too far afield to conclude that Bush, according to his own admission, appealed to his Heavenly, or "higher" Father for the strength to destroy Fallujah, Iraq, with, among other things, depleted uranium (which was one of the net results of his invasion).

The strength to make difficult decisions and do the right thing, obviously.  Not to justify the war based on God, as he stated explicitly.  There is no mention of God telling him to destroy Fallujah, and no mention of depleted uranium.  You're just mustering an army of strawmen.

Sorry. That doesn't sound very secular to me and veteran Washington reporter Bob Woodward was reportedly struck by something in that exchange.

He is acknowledging his belief in God.  What's wrong with that?  Are you saying that theists should not be allowed in public office, or that they should deny their beliefs?

But anyway, even if Bush did always give entirely secular justifications, how does that solve anything? Are secular crusades to make the Middle East safe for no-bid oil contracts and Israeli nuclear hegemony somehow more justifiable, in your opinion, than religious ones? I, personally, think crusades, by any other name, even a secular one, smell as foul.

Maybe so, but we were comparing the need for Muslims vs. Christians to defend their religions from extremists who discredit them.  Clearly if the justifications are entirely secular, then there is nothing for Christians to defend against.

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
IP IP Logged
The LastProphet
 
Starter.
Starter.
Avatar

Joined: 25 August 2013
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3
Quote The LastProphet Replybullet Posted: 25 August 2013 at 9:27pm
it was my understanding that 'islam' is 'submission to God'.  if some wish to call it a religion..... then so be it.  but if a christian submits to God... then they are islamic also. 

religion is a man made construct to separate one from another.  all biblical texts show that God , Allah, is one.  the One.  all biblical texts speak that the 10 commandments should be followed.  all biblical texts speak of turning your will over to Allah.

so, if one chooses to kill, then they are not following islam.  they are not submitting to God.  so ..... one should use a bit of common sense to realize that using the name of God, Allah, to justify killing and destruction, has absolutely nothing to do with God, Allah.  anyone can say anything they please.  but that does not make them a servant of God , someone that is submitting to His will.
IP IP Logged
Al Saadiqeen21
Male None
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 August 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 244
Quote Al Saadiqeen21 Replybullet Posted: 28 August 2013 at 8:39am
Originally posted by The LastProphet

it was my understanding that 'islam' is 'submission to God'.  if some wish to call it a religion..... then so be it.  but if a christian submits to God... then they are islamic also. 

religion is a man made construct to separate one from another.  all biblical texts show that God , Allah, is one.  the One.  all biblical texts speak that the 10 commandments should be followed.  all biblical texts speak of turning your will over to Allah.

so, if one chooses to kill, then they are not following islam.  they are not submitting to God.  so ..... one should use a bit of common sense to realize that using the name of God, Allah, to justify killing and destruction, has absolutely nothing to do with God, Allah.  anyone can say anything they please.  but that does not make them a servant of God , someone that is submitting to His will.
 
 
 
 
 Some Muslims will say , It is the Submission to the will of their God , Allah . However , The word Islaam is taken from the 5th name of their God , Allah , As Salaam meaning The Peace , '' Taken from The Ashuric / Syriac Arabic root word '' Salama , Meaning '' To Have , To Be Peaceful ''; Which Euro-Arab and Muslims greeting '' As Salaamu 'Alaykum , '' Meaning '' Peace Be Upon You , Come from , The word Salaam was derived from The Aramic / Hebrew word Shalom , Meaning '' Peace . ''

The word Muslim is derived from The Ashuric / Syriac Arabic word Salama meaning '' One Who Is Of Peace ,

One doesn't go to school let His / her's mind to die , They go to school so that their mind will come alive .

IP IP Logged
The LastProphet
 
Starter.
Starter.
Avatar

Joined: 25 August 2013
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3
Quote The LastProphet Replybullet Posted: 30 August 2013 at 9:56pm
you repeatedly used the phrase 'their God'.  do you not see Allah and the christian God as one and the same?

thank you for the lesson ..... point in fact .... that just makes it more apparent that Allah and the christian God are one and the same.

it was my understanding that Mohammad was disgusted by the early christians' corruption of the teachings of Jesus.  what the muslims do today and what was done in 700 AD are two different things.  some of the teachings they follow today leads them away from Allah/God.  just as some of the christian teachings lead them away from Allah/God.  it is spoken that at the end of times it shall be the christians and muslims that fight side by side against Allah/God.  and the remnant shall be small among the other servants of God/Allah.
blessings.
blessings
IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 8
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com