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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: Will anyone defend Islam? Post Reply Post New Topic
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NABA
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Quote NABA Replybullet Posted: 27 July 2013 at 2:03am
At experential, if someone cause mischief(injury or harm), definitely I will fight to stop him from causing mischief, talking abour tax, Surah Al Baqarah ch 2 v 280-Allah says give ample time to pay back to the person who u have give some debt, if he can't and if u forgive him that will b good for u.so Allah is saying if u forgive u will b blessed, pay attention to my words, I said I will fight to stop him from causing mischief not with the intention of causing harm to him.the ultimate goal of islam is "peace".

Edited by NABA - 27 July 2013 at 2:04am
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Quote Servetus Replybullet Posted: 27 July 2013 at 12:00pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

... I'm getting tired of defending their [Muslims'] reputations, especially if they can't be bothered themselves.


I might also add that, by linking to CARM, you are suggesting that Muslims go to a board which is, at its root, as biased against Ishmael as was Sarah (according to the Biblical, in contradistinction to the Quranic, record of the event). Thus, no matter how persuasive any given defense of Muslims may be, at argument's end, to the true and largely intransigent believers on that board, one of the leitmotifs of the Old Testament will nevertheless remain: the rights of the first-born will have been switched to the second-born and the "bondswoman," i.e., Hagar, will have been cast out. Ishmael, no matter how legitimately grieved, polite and articulate he may be, will still be perceived, by many a Bibliophile, as the "wild ass" of Genesis 16:12, however that may be interpreted.

But still, though I haven't read the thread in question at CARM, to the extent that you are seeking justice, I salute (and will try to support) your efforts. Furthermore, if together we can somehow find a way for all sides to suspend their biases and stereotypes, each toward the others, and without at the same time being rid of religion altogether, the better it will undoubtedly be.

Best regards,

Serv
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Edited by Servetus - 27 July 2013 at 12:06pm
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 29 July 2013 at 4:14pm

Originally posted by Servetus

I just sent Experiential a link to an article in the rather mainstream New York Times, entitled "Jesus and Jihad." Read it often and you will.

My first reaction is Shocked.  Not so much that Christians might imagine their God like that (I know many of them do), but more that they would find it in any way entertaining or "Glorious".

But let's keep in mind two important differences: one, that this is a work of fiction (I might say fantasy); and two, that God is the jihadist here, not Christians.  It may be a bit unsettling that some Christians indulge in such fantasies, but it's really none of my business.

Although the word, jihad, isn't overtly mentioned, here, and though it is a bit dated, is another example of many an article of its type which could be cited as proof. It is another mainstream media report, appearing in the New York Times, this time of cleric John Hagee having gone up to Washington D.C. to inform us of what "God's foreign policy" is. It should not be too surprising to note that, to him, God's policies and those of AIPAC are essentially indistinguishable. AIPAC, in consequence of the good Christian's announcements, has practically beatified the passively militant cleric. If you want to read the fatwah, it is here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/14/washington/14israel.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Although I don't necessarily agree with Hagee's politics (much less his religion), I'm not sure I would describe him as a jihadist.  Why would you call him that?  Because he supports Israel's right to exist?  Because he wants to see Hezbollah (a terrorist organization by most standards) defeated?  Because he has faith that his God also wants those things?

No doubt Christians commit atrocities, but they rarely do so explicitly in the name of God.  They do not shout the equivalent of "Allah akbar!" as they saw through their enemies' necks.  That is the kind of behaviour that demeans Islam, and that is what good Muslims cannot afford to remain silent about.

(P.S.: Sorry for the delay in replying.  Life intervened.)

Edited by Ron Webb - 29 July 2013 at 4:14pm
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 29 July 2013 at 4:47pm

Originally posted by Servetus

I might also add that, by linking to CARM, you are suggesting that Muslims go to a board which is, at its root, as biased against Ishmael as was Sarah (according to the Biblical, in contradistinction to the Quranic, record of the event).

I linked to that particular thread because it was the one that inspired my post here, but I wasn't intending to promote that site; and in hindsight, it wasn't even a particularly egregious example.  It's not hard to find Islam being attacked all over the Internet, often much more strongly than this.

Thus, no matter how persuasive any given defense of Muslims may be, at argument's end, to the true and largely intransigent believers on that board, one of the leitmotifs of the Old Testament will nevertheless remain: the rights of the first-born will have been switched to the second-born and the "bondswoman," i.e., Hagar, will have been cast out. Ishmael, no matter how legitimately grieved, polite and articulate he may be, will still be perceived, by many a Bibliophile, as the "wild ass" of Genesis 16:12, however that may be interpreted.

Yeah, that's the response I get from Muslims all the time.  "It's too hard, and it won't do any good anyway."  ("Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it." (2:216))  But nothing worthwhile is easy, and if I didn't believe that presenting alternative (even unpopular) viewpoints wasn't worthwhile, I wouldn't be here.  No, of course you won't change anyone's mind in the course of a debate, but I believe you can make progress over the long term.  I have often noticed that if I return to the topic months or years later, my opponents' positions have moderated slightly.

Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.
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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 01 August 2013 at 12:04am

Thanks for the link Servestus.

I think Ill stick with the Bible rather than the ''Glorious Appearing,''

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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 01 August 2013 at 12:07am
Originally posted by NABA

At experential, if someone cause mischief(injury or harm), definitely I will fight to stop him from causing mischief, talking abour tax, Surah Al Baqarah ch 2 v 280-Allah says give ample time to pay back to the person who u have give some debt, if he can't and if u forgive him that will b good for u.so Allah is saying if u forgive u will b blessed, pay attention to my words, I said I will fight to stop him from causing mischief not with the intention of causing harm to him.the ultimate goal of islam is "peace".

So if you think someone is causing mischief you will chop off their head and hands as Ch 8.12 says?

 

We are not talking about ch 2 v 280 Naba.

We are talking about 9.29 which is about the Jizyah tax imposed upon non Muslims.

So again I ask you the question how will you impose the Jizyah tax unless at the point of a sword or gun ?

 

I always thought the ultimate goal of Islam was submission.



Edited by Experiential - 01 August 2013 at 12:08am
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Servetus
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Quote Servetus Replybullet Posted: 01 August 2013 at 7:59am
There is no need to apologize for delays, Ron, given that life tends to intervene in my case rather often as well. In fact, it has. I will try to return to this topic when I can, but, in the meantime, something to ponder.

Originally posted by Ron Webb

... Why would you call him [Hagee] that? Because he supports Israel's right to exist? Because he wants to see Hezbollah (a terrorist organization by most standards) defeated? Because he has faith that his God also wants those things?


Not exactly, though parts of the above are included. Noticeably absent from your list of possibilities is Palestine's so called "right" to exist. Just last week the European Union decided to enforce its own laws, including some Geneva Conventions, I should think, by restricting trade with those entities with ties to the so called "settlements." That was surprisingly resolute. I (rhetorically) wonder if and when the USA, Israel's Siamese twin, will ever do the same?

When you refer to Israel, I would ask you: which one? Are you referring to the Israel of the present or are you referring to Eretz, that is to say Greater Israel, from the Nile to the Euphrates, as that Greater Israel appears, for example, on old Irgun (not exactly an organization of pacifistic Boy Scouts, it might be worth mentioning) maps and as envisioned by plenty of the expansionists presently "squatting," to use a euphemism, on disputed territories? Those squatters are engaged in what is sometimes called an "ideological struggle," which ideology is based upon Judaism, and which struggle I think is analogous to a jihad, a Jewish jihad. The flapping wings of the butterfly is in this case causing a typhoon. Pop some corn because this I will try to demonstrate when once I return to this board and to my keyboard. Though we may go somewhat far afield in the discussion, I also intend to bring it back round to Hagee and show how he and others of his type, including, especially, Pat Robertson, are passively militant Christian jihadists, engaged in a "struggle," with very real and concrete consequences, which often masquerades as an end-times apocalyptic agenda.



Serv
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Edited by Servetus - 01 August 2013 at 8:11am
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Quote Servetus Replybullet Posted: 04 August 2013 at 5:01pm
Originally posted by Experiential

Thanks for the link Servestus.


You are welcome, Experiential, but I am only called Servestus when I am wearing a vest: otherwise, I am Servetus, (a return of) the Christian Spaniard whom, some centuries back, the Roman Catholics burned in effigy and Protestants (John Calvin) burned at the stake in actuality. No worries, though, because plenty of people get my strange Latin name wrong and, when it is necessary for me to go incognito (especially to escape Calvin's sword-wielding henchmen), I operate as Michelle de Villaneuve.

But enough about me and my fascinating life and untimely death.

Originally posted by Experiential

I think Ill stick with the Bible rather than the ''Glorious Appearing,''


Despite the fact that the "Glorious Appearing" is Biblically based, from start to fin, you are probably well advised to stick with the Bible. The authors of "Glorious Appearing" seem at best fervid and have written a novel for the Evangelicals which impresses, or, better said and to coin a term, unimpresses me as the written equivalent of George Orwell's music for the Proles. The Bible, especially as it is translated into the mellifluous KJV, is infinitely better written.

Originally posted by Experiential

I challenge any one to show violence inherent in the life of Jesus and / or the New Testament.


I think one of the key verses you are looking for is this one, from St. Paul's Epistle to the Romans (13:1-4):

"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. [bold emphasis mine]"

This verse has historically been used, especially when Christian countries and nations were exactly (and at least nominally) that, Christian, to justify the use of the sword against enemies of the State, both foreign and domestic. I suppose it goes without saying that, at times, the ministers of God were remarkably diligent and the blood flowed in Christendom rather freely, not just at the feet of the Lord High Executioner, but also on the troublesome borders of Empire, at which borders the infidels, rabble and others tended to resist those ordinances of God.



Serv
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Edited by Servetus - 04 August 2013 at 5:07pm
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