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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 13 October 2005 at 2:13pm

Angela again you are comparing CHRISTIANITY and Islam not Mormonism and Islam granted that Mormonism is a sect of the Christian theological faith it does not specifically signify anything independent ( and worth noting outside the fold of Christianity) of Christian teaching. Most religions follow the following list you have noted with slight differences (give or take a few).

As for being the youngest denomination my apologies as I have miscalculated as the youngest instead of saying one of the youngest as your denomination is. Again this is not an attack on Mormonism but I'd like to clarify that Mormonism being a denominational sect of Christianity is not independent of most of the theological schools of thought under the Christian religion would you agree. As I have mentioned most of what you've posted is what Christians follow give and take a few dissimlarities.

Angela and perhaps you are unaware of the term "heterodox" contrary to what you say something that is heterodoxy (or heterodoxical in relation to heterodoxy) it is something that is not standard or unorthodox which a doctrine and/or its parts may run contrary to a standard set of beliefs. Granted that Mormonism is Christianity and granted it has its prophet after Jesus the fact remains is that the belief that there remains a prophet after Jesus alone is an unorthodox belief that many mainstream Christians do not believe in. Let alone many Christians in mainstream or other christian faiths hold Muhammad as a legitimate prophet who came after him over 530 something years. This is what I meant by heterodoxy I never claimed that there was one true church in regards to the Christian faith.

I would agree with you Angela that as a whole Christianity has much in common with Islam but not specifically Mormonism..... Again let not my words sound attacking to the Mormon faith as that is not my intention but as a friendly critique I have to note my beliefs on this matter however this is rather way off topic and perhaps should be in another forum.

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Quote Angela Replybullet Posted: 13 October 2005 at 2:55pm

Actually Israfil,

The things I posted as comparison are unique to the Mormons and not to mainstream Christians.  The prohibitions of alcohol, fasting, tithing, polygamy and revealed books, these are why we are different from other christian churches. 

I was raised Russian Orthodox and my father's family is Methodist.  I have lived in other churches longer than I have in the Mormon church.  I know there are HUGE differences.  But, you are right.  This is off the topic. 

If you wish to further discuss the similarities/differences in our faiths, I had started a thread under Interfaith Discussions called Mormonism per request from AhmadJoyia.  Answer me there and we can discuss things there.


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Quote Fatah-Momin Replybullet Posted: 21 October 2005 at 7:23pm
Originally posted by herjihad


Fatah, not only did I like your recent post about women and men in Islaam, but I really appreciate it.  It has a point to me that you might not have seen.  Because of all of these false hadith and out-dated fatwas, I trust the basics of Islaam, the Quraan, but the Hadith that decimate women and men or take away rights or dignity clearly established in the Quraan, I do not believe.  Whatever their Isnaads may be, Allah's, SWT's, Mercy is Supreme for me and many others. 

I am very sorry to hear that you have come accross hadiths that belittle or disrespect women, I have yet to come accross even one. please post the hadith and refrences so I can investigate and answer your reservations. I am one of the most active person on the net propogating the rights of women in Islam. Yet I have not found even one hadith to the effect what you are claiming here.

I left Christianity for a reason:  It didn't make sense.  Thank Allah, SWT, that the basic tenets of Islaam makes sense and Allah, SWT, opened my heart to it, or I wouldn't have become a Muslimah.  People need to stop insulting sisters and be glad that we are Muslims and not Kaffir.  Al-Hamdulilah, I am very pleased that I am a Muslimah after all of these years.  But it is sad that most often it is fellow Muslims who hurt me with their vicious verbal attacks, rather than the Christians.  Especially the Christians like Angela, May Allah, SWT, bless her for her respect for Muslims.

May Allah bless you with His rehma and bounties and keep you stead fast on the right path. 

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Quote Fatah-Momin Replybullet Posted: 24 October 2005 at 6:46pm

If Islam is not treating women equaly then why are independent women of christian world accepting Islam as their way of Islam.

Why are so many Women converting to Islam?
According to "The Plain Truth", February 1984, in its 50 Year Anniversary Issue, quoting from the "World Almanac and Book of Facts 1935" and "Reader's Digest Almanac and Yearbook 1983", between 1934 and 1984.

Christianity increased 47%
World Population increased 136%
<>Islam increased 235%


100,000 people per year in America alone, are converting to Islam. For every 1 male convert to Islam, 4 females convert to Islam.
They're discovering the FACTS and not basing their decisions on biased media. They realise they deserve to know the complete unadulterated truth.

1. The Bible Convicts Women as the original Sinners (ie. Eve picking from the forbidden tree){Genesis 2:4-3:24}.

The Koran Clarifies it was Adam Not Eve {Koran 7:19-25}

2. The Bible says "The Birth of a Daughter is a loss" {Ecclesiasticus 22:3}.

The Koran says both are an Equal Blessing {Koran 42:49}

3. The Bible forbids women from speaking in church {I Corinthians 14:34-35}.

The Koran says women can argue with the Prophet {58:1}

4. In the Bible, divorced Women are Labeled as an Adulteress, not men {Matthew 5:31-32}

The Koran does Not have Biblical double standards{Koran 30:21}

5. In The Bible, widows and sisters do not inherit Any property or wealth, only men do {Numbers 27:1-11}

The Koran abolished this male greed {Koran 4:22} and God protects all.

6. The Bible Allows Multiple Wives {I Kings 11:3}

In The Koran, God limits the number to 4 only under certain situations (with the wife's permission)and prefers you marry only one wife {Koran 4:3} The Koran gives the woman the right to choose who to marry.

7. "If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives" {Deuteronomy 22:28-30}

One must ask a simple question here, who is really punished, the man who raped the woman or the woman who was raped? According to the Bible, you have to spend the rest of your life with the man who raped you.

The Prophet Muhammad Says {Volume 9, Book 86, Number 101} Narrated by Aisha:"It is essential to have the consent of a virgin (for the marriage)".

Would the Non-Muslim men reading this prefer the Women they know to be Christian or Muslim?

8. The Bible also asks women to wear veils as in Islam {I Corinthians 11:3-10}

9. Women were given rights to Vote less than a 100 years ago in the (US), while the Koran gave women voting rights almost 1,500 years ago.

Christian Scientists are declaring the Koran is from God. Click Here for stories of Christians and atheist scientists who convert to Islam and why. The Christian Bishops and Priests are admitting the Bible has tensions. Jesus is a Muslim? Click here. The list goes on and on, to hear from some of these converts, including Nuns, and many Famous people click Here. For a more Information and Statistics click Here

This is Dedicated to Past, Present, and Future Muslim Sisters, Family and Friends, to the Devil who prefers slander and hype over facts. Peace and Blessings upon All.
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Quote herjihad Replybullet Posted: 25 October 2005 at 11:46am


Fatah, that sounds like another, really long topic!

One thing is that men and the sheikhs who advise them need to think of the family as a whole and stop taking away rights and responsiblities that Allah, SWT, clearly gave us.

The sisters could make  a special class for brothers who are going to get married on how to be fair et cetera to your potential new wife, or new wife.  Start out right guys!

My son wants to talk to me, and I really can't concentrate on this right now. 

Edited by herjihad
Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
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Quote Fatah-Momin Replybullet Posted: 29 October 2005 at 9:12am


"And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own, their solitary evidence can be received if they bear witness four times with an oath by Allah that they are solemnly telling the truth. And the fifth (oath) should be that they solemnly invoke the curse of Allah on themselves if they tell a lie. But it would avert the punishment from the wife if she bears witness four times with (an oath) by Allah that he (her husband) is telling a lie. And the fifth (oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of Allah on herself if (her accuser) is telling the truth. (24 : 6-9)


Book 12, Number 2269:

Narrated Abdullah ibn Amr ibn al-'As:

A woman said: Apostle of Allah, my womb is a vessel to this son of mine, my breasts, a water-skin for him, and my lap a guard for him, yet his father has divorced me, and wants to take him away from me. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: You have more right to him as long as you do not marry.

Book 12, Number 2270:

Narrated AbuHurayrah:

Hilal ibn Usamah quoted AbuMaymunah Salma, client of the people of Medina, as saying: While I was sitting with AbuHurayrah, a Persian woman came to him along with a son of hers. She had been divorced by her husband and they both claimed him.

She said: AbuHurayrah, speaking to him in Persian, my husband wishes to take my son away.

AbuHurayrah said: Cast lots for him, saying it to her in a foreign language.

Then her husband came and asked: Who is disputing with me about my son?

AbuHurayrah said: O Allah, I do not say this, except that I heard a woman who came to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) while I was sitting with him, and she said: My husband wishes to take away my son, Apostle of Allah, and he draws water for me from the well of AbuInabah, and he has been good to me.

The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: Cast lots for him. Her husband said: Who is disputing with me about my son? The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: This is your father and this your mother, so take whichever of them you wish by the hand. So he took his mother's hand and she went away with him.

Men cannot do without women and women cannot do without men. Therefore, in Islam, there is no clash between men and women as it was determined by some philosophers and religions. In Islam, women carry out their work and duties as men do. The first voice that was raised in support of Prophet Mohammed was not a man’s voice. It was a woman’s voice; his wife Khadijah.

First blood that was shed in the way of Allah was not a man’s blood, but it was a woman’s blood; Suma’ia the mother of Ammar and the wife of Yasser.

Women participated in the building of the Islamic civilization. Asma’a the daughter of Omair migrated with her husband to Abyssinia. There are many women who pledged commitment and loyalty to Allah and to the Prophet Mohamed (pbuh)

Some women also participated after the hijrah, in the battles with the Prophet to defend Islam, as was mentioned in Albukhari Book in the Chapter of the “Jihad of Women” where he mentioned the names of the Mothers of the Faithful.


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Quote Fatah-Momin Replybullet Posted: 03 November 2005 at 12:17am

Unfortunately, for those whose only source of knowledge concerning Islam is the western media, will inevitably believe that Islam is 'oppressive' to women - the hijab (veil) being the symbol of that oppression. Why? This is the result of a fierce propaganda campaign that has been going on all over the western world for a long time. Yet in the US, western Europe, Japan and Australia, it is the women who have been turning to Islam in record numbers and adopting the Islamic code of dress and enjoying their lives ever since. However, of late, many Muslim women have begun to envy their western counterparts for having a so-called "free and easy life". Yet little do they realise that the poor and unfortunate western woman is suffering a nightmare. Outwardly, non-Muslim women are seen to be given equal rights in education, work and so forth, but in reality these women are still oppressed in a different, subtler way. In these days of so-called "equal-rights" a woman is expected to have boyfriends (or she is considered weird) and to lose her virginity before she is married. Under the banner of "freedom" western women are told they have the complete independence to do as they wish. This however, is a charade - both the media machine and the multimillion dollar film/advertising industries establish the status quo that people are programmed to accept. Consequently, these institutions fashion and nurture the ideas of the common people and their principles, morals and conduct. This unnecessary pressure on women to conform or be rejected is in itself a form of oppression although many women do not realise it. This is where the fallacy of the freedom and non-oppression of women lies. It seems that everywhere in the west a woman is seen as an object of man's desire only to be harassed and reduced to a source of temporary joy and pleasure as well as her sexuality being exploited - how? - Nearly every advertisement has to have a naked woman in order to sell its product. The lewd onslaught that humanity has been subject to has provided an environment where the honour and respect of women is constantly under threat. For example, women are subject to unacceptable harassment in the modern workplace; - 38% of men have been found to physically abuse their female counterparts. Outside the workplace, men have let loose of their desires due to the high exposure to the media bombardment they receive that exploits the femininity of women, day in day out.

Consider the following statistics:

A rape is committed every two minutes in the USA

In 1996 307,000 women were the victims of rape or sexual assault in the USA and only 31% of rapes and sexual assaults were reported!

75% of all sexual assaults are committed by men who know their victims personally

Even her womb is an unsafe place for her unborn child as she is pressured into believing that abortion is a natural choice (why should a living child in the womb be deserving of fewer rights than one which is already born). Women with children are no better off as men are no longer made responsible and accountable for the children they produce. In the USA in 1994, 9.9 million single mothers were maintaining and taking care of their children compared with only 1.6 million single fathers.

The western woman is led to believe that by selling her body she is achieving equality, but in reality she is just being exploited for the desires and financial gains of men. And with the billions of dollars that are generated by the pornographic industries it is not surprising that she is encouraged to do this. Thus, women in this society are not regarded as human beings with feelings and needs but as mere available commodities to be used and cast aside. All this is leading her to alcohol and drug addiction as well as poor health and depression, then eventually suicide - all of which are increasing rapidly for women today. In bygone days, women were murdered when they had served their apparent purpose, now women are ultimately driven to kill themselves!

This is the position of women in the west. Is this a society that promises the freedom and protection of its womenfolk? It is apparent from the above that the illusion of freedom and supposed equality of life of the western woman is in fact destroying her. But she staggers around in an apathetic stupor because she cannot envisage an alternative.


First of all, hijab (head cover), the greatest symbol of oppression and servitude in the West, is not an invention of Islam; in fact, it is part of Judaeo-Christian tradition. Rabbi Dr. Menachem M. Brayer (Professor of Biblical Literature at Yeshiva University) quotes some famous ancient Rabbis saying "It's not like the daughters of Israel to walk out with heads uncovered" and Cursed be the man who lets the hair of his wife be seen...a woman who exposes her hair for self-adornment brings poverty." [1] In the New Testament, St. Paul made some very interesting statements about the veil:

"Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonours his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonours her head - it is just as though her head were shaved. If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or shaved off, she should cover her head. A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman but woman for man. For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head" (1 Corinthians(1:3-6))

Many times Muslim women are asked why do they cover completely from head to toe. They are also told that this is oppression. Marriage is an important part of life in Islam and women are required to show themselves to their husbands only and not the public. Men are also prevented from showing certain parts of their body in public. The above statistics show clearly how often women are raped and molested in this society. The Hijab (Veil) of the Muslim woman is her protection. It allows her to be judged as an individual and not as an object of desire, i.e. her sexuality is no longer in the equation and she is no longer a slave to the unfair demands of beauty made by this male driven society. The hijab inculcates modesty in a woman, it does not act as a sign of man’s authority over women, or her subjugation, rather it protects her from molestation.

"O Prophet, tell your wives and daughters and the believing women that they should cast their outer garment over their bodies so that they should be known (as Muslim and chaste women) and not molested" (33:59)

Before becoming lured by the "Sugar coated Poison" of the western woman's lifestyle, realise that our Hijab (Veil) is our pride not our shame. Truly the respect we are looking for will diminish if we neglect this. Also, free mixing and inter-mingling of the sexes is prohibited in Islam for the benefit of both men and women and it is clear that such behaviour is the cause of so many problems in today's society, i.e. adultery - which is the most common cause for divorce. Undoubtedly whatever Allah (SWT) commands is pure, beneficial to mankind and right.

Islam encourages chastity, marriage, reproduction and upbringing of children for women, all of which our so-called "modern, liberated women" are taught to neglect at their peril. Islam gave women economic liberation and independence from men for the first time in human history. The Muslim woman was able to buy, sell, inherit and invest as she pleased. Through observing Haya (modesty, bashfulness) and the elevated status of motherhood, Muslim women enjoy respect and protection in society. Islamic history is replete with Muslim women who were scholars and intellectuals as well as the true backbone of society. This is because of the strong emphasis on education as well as social stability that Islam holds.

The western woman prides herself on her "freedom". Yes, freedom is a quality of life that all should have, however, does freedom to fornicate, commit adultery and other sins of the flesh equate to progress and advancement of society, or is this a return to traits of bestiality, a far cry to those noble qualities commanded in the noble Quran and the teachings of the Prophet Mohammad (SAW). This acts as a source of mercy to the world we live in, acknowledging the inherent evil nature of man, rather than the need to restrict and punish women.

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Quote Fatah-Momin Replybullet Posted: 03 November 2005 at 12:19am


WOMEN IN SHARI'AH (ISLAMIC LAW) by Abdur Rahman I. Doi (1992)

*Presently a Professor at the International Islamic University, Malaysia.

Women in Society (Page 17-19)

Maulana Abul A'La Maududi has made a fine psychological distinction, however, between women looking at men and men looking at women. The man, he says, " by nature aggressive. If a thing appeals to him, he is urged from within to acquire it. On the other hand, the woman's nature is one of inhibition and escape. Unless her nature is totally corrupted, she can never become so aggressive, bold and fearless, as to make the first advances towards the male who has attracted her. In view of this distinction, the Legislator (the Prophet) does not regard a woman's looking at other men to be as harmful as a man's looking at other women. In several traditions it has been reported that the Prophet (peace be upon him) let Aisha see a performance given by negroes on the occassion of the 'Id. This shows that there is no absolute prohibition on women looking at other men. What is prohibited is for women to sit in the same gathering together with men and stare at them, or look at them in the same manner which may lead to evil results.

Social Behavior

The Shariah has placed restrictions on men meeting strange women privately. Similarly no other man other than her husband is allowed to touch any part of a woman's body. The following traditions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) are worth noting in this connection :

"Beware that you do not call on women who are alone," said the Messenger of Allah. One
of the Companions asked, "O Messenger of Allah, what about the younger or elder brother of the husband?" The Prophet replied, "He is death".

(Tirmidhi, Bukhari and Muslim)

The Prophet said, "The one who touches the hand of a woman without having a lawful relationship with her, will have an ember placed on his palm on the Day of Judgement."

(Takmalah, Fath al-Qadir)

Aishah says that the Prophet accepted the oath of allegiance from women only verbally, without taking their hands into his own hand. He never touched the hand of a woman who was not married to him.


Umaimah, daughter of Ruqaiqah, said that she went to the Prophet in the company of some other women to take oath of allegiance. He made them promise that they would abstain from idolatry, stealing, adultery, slander, and disobedience to the Prophet. When they had taken the oath, they requested that he take their hands as a mark of allegiance.

The Prophet said, "I do not take the hands of women. Verbal affirmation is enough."

(Nasai and Ibn Majah)

It is most unfortunate, however, that in spite of this guidance from the Prophet (peace be upon him) many Muslims have adopted the Western system of shaking hands with women, using these traditions in respect of old women as justification. This is clearly an unreasonable extension of the permission. It is therefore, submitted that the Muslims the world over, and ulama in particular, must pause to reflect and stop this Un-Islamic practice which has crept into our society. There cannot be a better form of greeting than uttering ASsalamualaikum (peace be upon you) and greeting back with Waalaikumsalam
(peace be upon you too).

The Mosque - Page 29

There is a clear tradition of the Prophet (peace be upon him) encouraging women to offer their prayers inside their houses : "The best mosques for women are the inner parts of their houses"

Since the Prophet had not forbidden women to attend the mosques, they continued to come to the mosques. But after his death it became increasingly clear that it was not keeping with the dignity and honour of Muslim women to come to the mosques for prayers, especially at night, because men, being what they were, would tease them. Therefore, the Khalif Umar told women not to come to the mosques, but to offer their prayers inside their own houses. The women of Madina resented this prohibition and complained to Aisha. But they received a fitting reply from her : "If the Prophet knew what Umar knows, he would not have granted you permission to go out (to the mosque)".

It is reported by Abu Hurairah that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "The best row for men is the first, and the worst for them is the last. The best row for women is the last, and the worst is the first."


Divorce (Page 84)

Talaq is a right available mainly to the husband, but not to the wife. even though Islam allows divorce, the Prophet (peace be upon him) says :

"Of all things that Islam has permitted, divorce is the most hated by Allah. " (Abu Dawud)

This shows that the right is to be exercised only when there are sufficiently compelling reasons to do so. Hasty and wanton use of the right of divorce is regarded as most condemnable in Islam. The Prophet said, "Marry and do not divorce, undoubtedly the Throne of the Beneficient Lord shakes due to divorce".

Thus Islam encourages reconciliation between spouses rather than severance of their relations.

Repentance of the Slanderer (Page 126-127)

If a husband puts forward an accusation against his wife or a wife against her husband, the Holy Quran lays down the following procedure :

"And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own, their solitary evidence can be received if they bear witness four times with an oath by Allah that they are solemnly telling the truth. And the fifth (oath) should be that they solemnly invoke the curse of Allah on themselves if they tell a lie. But it would avert the punishment from the wife if she bears witness four times with (an oath) by Allah that he (her husband) is telling a lie. And the fifth (oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of Allah on herself if (her accuser) is telling the truth. (24 : 6-9)

Women and Education (Page 138-139)

The Holy Prophet made women integral to his plan for Muslim education and learning when he declared :

"An acquisition of knowledge is obligatory for every Muslim, male and female"

The Holy Prophet made it a point of duty for every father and mother to make sure that their daughters (and sons) did not remain ignorant of the teachings of Islam because they would, after the marriage, have to play important roles as housewives and as mothers of children. In case the parents had failed to impart such knowledge to their daughters, it was made incumbent upon husbands to teach their wives the basic principles so that they would lead their lives according to the teachings of Islam.

It is reported that Malik Ibn Huwayrith and a group of young men had come to live near the Prophet and acquire knowledge from him.

When they decided to return to their respective homes, the Prophet told them,

"Return home to your wives and children and stay with them. Teach them (what you have learnt) and ask them to act upon it." (Al -Bukhari)

"Ignorant and illiterate mothers cannot possibly rear their children and raise them to be good, effective, capable and intelligent Muslims, in the world today" (Maryam Jameelah Answers Questions, The Criterion, p.46)

To conclude, the seven brilliant jewels of a mu'mins faith (iman) as mentioned in these verses are :

Humility 2. Avoidance of vanity 3. Charity 4. Sexual purity

Fidelity to trusts 6. Fidelity to covenants

An earnest desire to get closer to Allah

"Waqul Rabbi Zidni Ilma"

ps : May we benefit something from this.. INshaallah.. n makes us *think* ..

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