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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
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Fatah-Momin
 
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Quote Fatah-Momin Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2005 at 11:59am
The Prophet (peace be upon him) was most emphatic in enjoining upon Muslims to be kind to their women when he delivered his famous khutba on the Mount of Mercy at Arafat in the presence of one hundred and twenty-four thousand of his Companions who had gathered there for the Hajj al-Wada (Farewell Pilgrimage). In it he ordered those present, and through them all those Muslims who were to come later, to be respectful and kind towards women. He said:

"Fear Allah regarding women. Verily you have married them with the trust of Allah, and made their bodies lawful with the word of Allah. You have got (rights) over them, and they have got (rights) over you in respect of their food and clothing according to your means."
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Fatah-Momin
 
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Quote Fatah-Momin Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2005 at 12:10pm

But the Qur’an says to beat the women?

……As those women
On whose part ye fear
Disloyalty and ill conduct
Admonish them (first)
(Next) refuse to share their beds,
(And last) beat them (lightly)
But if they return to obedience,
Seek not against them
Means (of annoyance)
For God is Most High,
Great (above you all) 04:34



Comment: World over, Christian missionaries use this verse to give credence to their claim that women in Islam are treated as second rate people. No, but to the contrary, this verse instructs Muslim males not to be confrontational even with disloyal women [wife who lies, steal things, does not treat her husband with respect]. Yet rather to gradually, in steps, to deal with the situation in line with human nature.

Step 1. To verbally warn them and ask the woman to mend her ways

Step 2. This is a very important step, as of most women start feeling insecure if they don’t have physical contact with their husbands. In this situation she will mend her ways.

Step 3. The last resort, to implement this step one, first has to exhaust all other options. Then to beat a woman in such a way that there is not a single mark left on her skin. Think what kind of beating this is.

Important: If women is found commiting punishable act a husband can not take it upon himslef to punish the wife, he still has to follow the law of evidence which is four witness to the act being commited.

As soon as women return to obedience, the husband has been ordered not to nag or be sarcastic about the past. Now if the woman is annoyed, it is the husband who is now in sin. Forgiving and Merciful, Allah is.


We have now established the equality of women, their right to choose and preference for monogamy.

In christian world millions of women are abused everyday, by alcoholic husbands, boyfriends, incest is a common occurance. No one label it as "christian thing" in christian world women give birth to hundereds and thousands of bastards every day, why is it not labeled as "christian" act?

When a muslim man in his ignorance does an act which is against the law of Allah, it is immediately labeled as "Islam" why?

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Angela
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Quote Angela Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2005 at 12:50pm

Sarkeranwar,

This is the site I got my surah from....

http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/

I had hoped I hadn't hit an anti site.  I know its annoying when someone uses an anti site to misquote the Book of Mormon.  Your translation makes alot more sense as does Fatah's explaination.  Though I still don't approve of any form of spousal abuse, I see that its a last resort and I like the fact that as Fatah stated that the laws of proof still apply.  The surah makes more sense now.

Fatah,

To answer your last question...

When a muslim man in his ignorance does an act which is against the law of Allah, it is immediately labeled as "Islam" why?

I think this is the same reason that men like Brother123 see Hollywood movies and blame the disgraceful behavior of Rated-R movies on the Christian faith.  Its perception and presentation.  When we in the west see a story of a woman raped because her child brother supposedly flirted with a married man....and the sentence is carried out by a tribal council that claims to be inacting Islamic Law....then we label the act islamic.  And we do so wrongfully.  Education will be the only way to correct the images of Christianity in the East and Islam in the west. 

In christian world millions of women are abused everyday, by alcoholic husbands, boyfriends, incest is a common occurance. No one label it as "christian thing" in christian world women give birth to hundereds and thousands of bastards every day, why is it not labeled as "christian" act?

These are not christian acts, I guess they don't get labelled that here, because its common knowledge that these things are sins.  Unfortunately, that is not always so clear to someone who knows nothing about another religion or culture.  I could honestly not tell you what is forbidden in Buddhism, but I could tell you a little about Hinduism....but I'm rare here in the states.  I explored other faiths in my youth.  Islam is new to me....and strangely very close to the beliefs I follow closely in my own church.


 

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Fatah-Momin
 
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Quote Fatah-Momin Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2005 at 1:46pm

Angela:These are not christian acts,

Why? People enacting this behavior are followers of christian faith, then why cant we label it as "christian act" when christian media label every act as "Islamic Act"

Angela:these things are sins.

These things are sins in every part of the world not just in christian world.

I apologize for my blunt language, inshallah I will continue with the series "Ask Quran" I have broken it in small posts as a membrs tend to lose interest in a long article, inshallah[Allah Willing] will try to bring forth the the rights of women as given to them by Allah, and taken away by ignorant muslim males.

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Fatah-Momin
 
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Quote Fatah-Momin Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2005 at 1:52pm

Angela:When we in the west see a story of a woman raped because her child brother supposedly flirted with a married man....and the sentence is carried out by a tribal council that claims to be inacting Islamic Law....then we label the act islamic

It is a common knoweldge that punishment of adultry is death by stonning this is the same punishment as revealed to Jews and christians. Nowhere in any revealed religion punishment of rape is rape, this is christian media propogation. Why does media not propogate the rape of women in christian world, it happens every nite, now it is labeled as "date rape" we should call it "christian rape"

 

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Angela
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Quote Angela Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2005 at 3:04pm

Fatah....note the sentence after that.  And we do so wrongfully. 

I agree that it is not what islam teaches, I'm just trying to shed some light for you why there is the misperception in the west.  The majority of Americans do not know what Islamic teaches are and therefore, when something like what happened to that poor Pakistani woman occurs, there is no education to back up the perception of what happened. 

What I'm trying to say, the reason these crimes are not labeled as such is there is no pretense that they are done in the name of religion.  Many times when we get reports of the abuses against women or acts of terrorism, there is a claim by the parties to be doing this in the name of Islam.  This is not the case, but when you read the newspaper and you see that the Taliban claims to be an Islamic state governed only by Islamic law, and then you see what was happening there.  Women forbidden from learning to read, killed for going out of their houses, etc.....what is an unknowning person to think?  If they do not know the truth, then all they have is the perception.  These things happen, and they hurt your people, not because they are acts of Islam, but because the perpetrators "claim" to be muslim. 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A1907-2005Mar2 5.html

The only case I know of a rapist claiming innocence due to faith is the Elizabeth Smart case.  The man has been declared as insane and could not even stand trial he was so mentally ill.  In most cases here, the rapes are blamed on the victim by the rapist, there is never a claim that the woman was punished because she broke Christian law.  The difference is in the claim of the criminals.  When a man blows himself up on a London metro, he's doing it for what reason?  When one gang member in New York kills another, its a turf war, not religious....that's the difference in representation that leads to the wrongful belief that these are islamic acts.

I am NOT saying that the claim these things are islamic is true.  But, the perception they are in the west is such. 

 

 

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Angela
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Quote Angela Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2005 at 3:15pm
Originally posted by Fatah-Momin

Angela:These are not christian acts,

Why? People enacting this behavior are followers of christian faith, then why cant we label it as "christian act" when christian media label every act as "Islamic Act"

Angela:these things are sins.

These things are sins in every part of the world not just in christian world.

I apologize for my blunt language, inshallah I will continue with the series "Ask Quran" I have broken it in small posts as a membrs tend to lose interest in a long article, inshallah[Allah Willing] will try to bring forth the the rights of women as given to them by Allah, and taken away by ignorant muslim males.

 

Actually, one other statement on this issue.  We often don't know the religious affiliation of all our criminals.  America is a land of many religions and many denominations among the Christian faith.  A Catholic believes very differently from a Mormon.  We have Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, Shintao, Native American religions, Pagans, and Satanists.  We are a society that does not focus on religion.  Its only a part of the identity.  Why do you think our political situation is so messed up?  You have conservatives and liberals, all with different views on what is and is not Christian.  But the very emphasis on religion is taboo....its the separation of Church and State.  The secularization of everything has also lead to things being labeled as "Christian" or "Jewish" is frowned on.  Unfortunately, the propaganda and mass media are quick to label Middle Eastern problems Islamic, because its almost certain what religion the people are.....that's wrong, but it happens. 

I am sorry, it happens this way.  I can say I know the frustration.  Whenever anyone talks of Utah polygamists, they point fingers at my church, even though those people have been excommunicated.  They also always blame our anti drinking and smoking laws on the Mormons, even though I've lived in places with stricter anti drinking laws outside of Utah.  People will label and blame who they will.  They are blind and prejudice.  And that is a sad, sad thing.

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Fatah-Momin
 
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Quote Fatah-Momin Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2005 at 3:55pm

Angela: Actually, one other statement on this issue.  We often don't know the religious affiliation of all our criminals. 

In usa according to the census there is population 250 Million people, out of that one estimate is there are 6 million jew and almost same numbers of muslims, this also include Nation of Islam among muslims. Hindus and other religion are negligible in numbers. When one discuss an issue it usually based on general population and not specific segments.

You document sects of christian faith, giving preception as if these sect are not christians.

Taliban never kept women from education this agian is christian media bias, as TRaliban are followers of salafi school, the salaf allowed women to get education, the greatest source of islamic education for almost fifty years after the death of the prophet[saw] was his wives Hz. Ayesha[ra]. This show that women are not only allowed to teach but also get education.

The very first wives of the Prophet[saw] was a business women, who persused her carreer even after marriage.

Women used to look after the injured during the battles, this mean that muslim women can practise medicine, where interaction with male is a daily occurance.

There are many incidences when women fought battles during the life time of the prophet[saw] this further show that women can be employed as fighting force in any islamic country.

Allah willing I will continue the post here.



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