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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
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amlhabibi2000
 
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Quote amlhabibi2000 Replybullet Posted: 07 October 2005 at 11:00am

 

Salam Alaikoam

There is something one can do to assist others send or give them information in community resources, support groups or counselors to learn new skills and accept responsibility for themselves and have a more positive attitude towards themselves and others towards positive change.

We cannot leave those being abused, self abusing or abusing others or the world alone to continue the behavior, we must guide them well.

I realize that stream lining education, counseling and consultation is a challenge however we have the education, training, people, resources and technology and now we can more fully address the issues that plague our lives and world.

If your suffering hold on and seek out those who can guide you to new ways of being and living your life.

To those who are abusing people there is hope and redemption for you too and you must accept responsibility for yourself and your actions and get the guidance and education you need to refresh and gladden your spirit in healthy and happier ways than being abusive.

We are all in this life together and it will take a Team approach to create Jannah, Heaven within us, within our families, communities and Nations.

Ten thousands years we have been at making the world and ourselves better and now we have everything we need to accomplish this, are you willing to participate?

May Allah Bless you on your journey.

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Judgement day passes in the moment we decide something needs attention & we take positive action. Then there will be a great sorting out of people into groups, Inspired by Surah 99 Ayat 1-8
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Angela
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Quote Angela Replybullet Posted: 07 October 2005 at 12:33pm

"Spare the rod, Spoil the child"  has a different translation for Mormons.  We consider the scriptures to be the iron rod seen in the Prophet Lehi's vision of the path to heaven.  By gripping the rod and holding fast, we can make our way home to God.  So, if you spare the "rod" you aren't teaching your child properly. 

But, still, what is the fear of desertion in that surah?  I'm sure I'm not reading it right, but it almost sounds like, you can beat your wife if she's going to leave?    That doesn't sound right, so what does fear of desertion mean? 

As for past actions of Christians, its wrong to beat your wife no matter what faith she is......I just don't remember a scripture in my bible directing my husband to beat me.  I'm not trying to be a pain.  This surah is really bothering me.  Of all the surah's I've read so far, this is a giant stumbling block for me.

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Fatah-Momin
 
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Quote Fatah-Momin Replybullet Posted: 07 October 2005 at 1:43pm

Angela: I'm sure I'm not reading it right, but it almost sounds like, you can beat your wife if she's going to leave?    That doesn't sound right, so what does fear of desertion mean? 

 

Very valid point has been raised by you, I must acknowledge that you are a first christian to have asked a question on this issue and not pointed a finger. Yes it does not sound right, then what does it sound like? I hope respected member of the board will be able to answer this question.

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Fatah-Momin
 
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Quote Fatah-Momin Replybullet Posted: 09 October 2005 at 11:02pm
This is amazing a christian member of this board has asked a question on a issue which is raised over and over in every interfaith debate, to put Down muslims and their faith. No brother/sister has come forward to answer this issue. This is surprising. It is our job to educate none muslims what our deen is.
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herjihad
 
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Quote herjihad Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2005 at 7:58am

Bismillah,

Your question was:  Why is there misunderstanding about the rights of women in Islaam, and you said something about the women seeming to have a stranglehold over the husband?

Misunderstandings will always occur.  However, I believe that men are creatures who naturally seek power.  They are stronger than women and want to have their own way, no matter what Christianity, Hinduism or Islaam says.

Islaam came and gave many rights to women who had had none.  Men are trying very hard to justify taking them away.

Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
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Angela
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Quote Angela Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2005 at 9:05am

No, Herjihad, my question is not about strangle hold of women over men....my question is, where Islam has given so many rights to women....  Why does it allow the husbands to beat their wives?  The surah I posted bothers me.  Its one of the very few things I've found that does.  The only thing I see there, is that there is a condition.  The fear of desertion.....and I was hoping someone could shed light on what that meant???

 

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herjihad
 
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Quote herjihad Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2005 at 9:40am

Bismillah,

I think FM posted that about the stranglehold.

So the hadith that describes Muhammad's, PBUH, fear of receiving punishment for beating his servant with a small stick the size of your finger is often used by sheikhs to explain that beatings are not encouraged, and if they do occur, it would certainly not inflict any type of physical harm. 

If the holy prophet was angry, he had a good reason.  Yet he restrained himself from doing anything because he was concerned about punishment for this action.  This clearly says that beating, even with a small stick, should not be done.

And the reason for the beating allowed in the Quraan is sexual misconduct or theft of his property.

The reason men beat women is because they need to learn self-control.  There is too much violence in most societies, and gentleness in men, unfortunately, is seen as a weakness.  I don't know of any teachings that allow or encourage men to beat their wives in Islaam.  I have attended many lectures on marital relations, and the speakers have always encouraged gentleness and patience between a husband and wife.  (Maybe I just wouldn't be the type to be invited to the "be harsh with your wife" lecture. )

Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
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Sarkeranwar
 
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Quote Sarkeranwar Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2005 at 9:56am
Originally posted by Angela

No, Herjihad, my question is not about strangle hold of women over men....my question is, where Islam has given so many rights to women....  Why does it allow the husbands to beat their wives?  The surah I posted bothers me.  Its one of the very few things I've found that does.  The only thing I see there, is that there is a condition.  The fear of desertion.....and I was hoping someone could shed light on what that meant???

Angela, your quoted translation of Verse 4:34 is not accurate. You probably got this translation from anti-islam people. Your translator seems deliberately used the word "desertion" instead of "illconduct" which is the true meaning. Here is the correct translation of the Verse in question. Moreover, I have appended the Tafsir (Ibn Kathir) of this Verse where you will learn detail meaning of this Verse. Insha Allah you will find it useful. 

4:34. Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allh has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allh and to their husbands), and guard in the husband's absence what Allh orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband's property, etc.). As to those women on whose part you see ill­conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful), but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allh is Ever Most High, Most Great.

Allah said,

(Men are the protectors and maintainers of women,) meaning, the man is responsible for the woman, and he is her maintainer, caretaker and leader who disciplines her if she deviates.

(because Allah has made one of them to excel the other,) meaning, because men excel over women and are better than them for certain tasks. This is why prophethood was exclusive of men, as well as other important positions of leadership. The Prophet said,

(People who appoint a woman to be their leader, will never achieve success.) Al-Bukhari recorded this Hadith. Such is the case with appointing women as judges or on other positions of leadership.

(and because they spend from their means.) meaning the dowry, expenditures and various expenses that Allah ordained in His Book and the Sunnah of His Messenger for men to spend on women. For these reasons it is suitable that he is appointed her maintainer, just as Allah said,

(But men have a degree (of responsibility) over them).

Qualities of the Righteous Wife

Allah said,

(Therefore, the righteous) women,

(are Qanitat), obedient to their husbands, as Ibn `Abbas and others stated.

(and guard in the husband's absence) As-Suddi and others said that it means she protects her honor and her husband's property when he is absent, and Allah's statement,

(what Allah orders them to guard.) means, the protected [husband] is the one whom Allah protects. Ibn Jarir recorded that Abu Hurayrah said that the Messenger of Allah said,  

(The best women is she who when you look at her, she pleases you, when you command her she obeys you, and when you are absent, she protects her honor and your property.) Then, the Messenger of Allah recited the Ayah,

(Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, ) until its end. Imam Ahmad recorded that `Abdur-Rahman bin 'Awf said that the Messenger of Allah said,

If the woman prayed her five daily prayers, fasted her month, protected her chastity and obeyed her husband, she will be told, 'Enter Paradise from any of its doors you wish.

Dealing with the Wife's Ill-Conduct

Allah said,

(As to those women on whose part you see ill conduct,) meaning, the woman from whom you see ill conduct with her husband, such as when she acts as if she is above her husband, disobeys him, ignores him, dislikes him, and so forth. When these signs appear in a woman, her husband should advise her and remind her of Allah's torment if she disobeys him. Indeed, Allah ordered the wife to obey her husband and prohibited her from disobeying him, because of the enormity of his rights and all that he does for her. The Messenger of Allah said,

(If I were to command anyone to prostrate before anyone, I would have commanded the wife to prostrate before her husband, because of the enormity of his right upon her.) Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Hurayrah said that the Messenger of Allah said,  

(If the man asks his wife to come to his bed and she declines, the angels will keep cursing her until the morning.) Muslim recorded it with the wording,

(If the wife goes to sleep while ignoring her husband's bed, the angels will keep cursing her until the morning.) This is why Allah said,

(As to those women on whose part you see ill conduct, admonish them (first)). Allah's statement,

(abandon them in their beds,) `Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas said "The abandonment refers to not having intercourse with her, to lie on her bed with his back to her.'' Several others said similarly. As-Suddi, Ad-Dahhak, `Ikrimah, and Ibn `Abbas, in another narration, added, "Not to speak with her or talk to her.'' The Sunan and Musnad compilers recorded that Mu`awiyah bin Haydah Al-Qushayri said, "O Allah's Messenger! What is the right that the wife of one of us has on him'' The Prophet said,  

(To feed her when you eat, cloth her when you buy clothes for yourself, refrain from striking her face or cursing her, and to not abandon her, except in the house.) Allah's statement,

(beat them) means, if advice and ignoring her in the bed do not produce the desired results, you are allowed to discipline the wife, without severe beating. Muslim recorded that Jabir said that during the Farewell Hajj, the Prophet said;

(Fear Allah regarding women, for they are your assistants. You have the right on them that they do not allow any person whom you dislike to step on your mat. However, if they do that, you are allowed to discipline them lightly. They have a right on you that you provide them with their provision and clothes, in a reasonable manner.) Ibn `Abbas and several others said that the Ayah refers to a beating that is not violent. Al-Hasan Al-Basri said that it means, a beating that is not severe.

When the Wife Obeys Her Husband, Means of Annoyance Against Her are Prohibited

Allah said,

(but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance),) meaning, when the wife obeys her husband in all that Allah has allowed, then no means of annoyance from the husband are allowed against his wife. Therefore, in this case, the husband does not have the right to beat her or shun her bed. Allah's statement,

(Surely, Allah is Ever Most High, Most Great.) reminds men that if they transgress against their wives without justification, then Allah, the Ever Most High, Most Great, is their Protector, and He will exert revenge on those who transgress against their wives and deal with them unjustly.

(4:35. If you fear a breach between the two, appoint (two) arbitrators, one from his family and the other from her's; if they both wish for peace, Allah will cause their reconciliation. Indeed Allah is Ever All-Knower, Well-Acquainted with all things.)

Appointing Two Arbitrators When the Possibility of Estrangement Between Husband and Wife Occurs

Allah first mentioned the case of rebellion on the part of the wife. He then mentioned the case of estrangement and alienation between the two spouses. Allah said,

(If you fear a breach between the two, appoint (two) arbitrators, one from his family). The Fuqaha' (scholars of Fiqh) say that when estrangement occurs between the husband and wife, the judge refers them to a trusted person who examines their case in order to stop any wrongs commited between them. If the matter continues or worsens, the judge sends a trustworthy person from the woman's family and a trustworthy person from the man's family to meet with them and examine their case to determine whether it is best for them to part or to remain together. Allah gives preference to staying together, and this is why Allah said,

(if they both wish for peace, Allah will cause their reconciliation.) `Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas said, "Allah commands that a righteous man from the husband's side of the family and the wife's side of the family are appointed, so that they find out who among the spouses is in the wrong. If the man is in the wrong, they prevent him from his wife, and he pays some restitution. If the wife is in the wrong, she remains with her husband, and he does not pay any restitution. If the arbitrators decide that the marriage should remain intact or be dissolved, then their decision is upheld. If they decide that the marriage remains intact, but one of the spouses disagrees while the other agrees, and one of them dies, then the one who agreed inherits from the other, while the spouse who did not agree does not inherit from the spouse who agreed.'' This was collected by Ibn Abi Hatim and Ibn Jarir. Shaykh Abu `Umar bin `Abdul-Barr said, "The scholars agree that when the two arbitrators disagree, then the opinion that dissolves the marriage will not be adopted. They also agree that the decision of the arbitrators is binding, even if the two spouses did not appoint them as agents. This is the case if it is decided that they should stay together, but they disagree whether it is binding or not when they decide for separation.'' Then he mentioned that the majority holds the view that the decision is still binding, even if they did not appoint them to make any decision.

"Our Lord! Give us in this world that which is good and in the Hereafter that which is good, and save us from the torment of the Fire!" Quran 2:201
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