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Interfaith Dialogue
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Mansoor_ali
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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 07 July 2013 at 2:14am

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There were Christians and Jews in Arabia long before the time of Mohammad. Mohammad knew the stories from the Torah and Injil through word of mouth. How else would he have known about all of the stories and prophets from the Torah and Injil. Including the creation story.

Not being able to read or write had nothing to do with it.


 My Reply


 Let me put forward some questions:

 "Why is it in spite of the abundance of historical material on Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam)'s life, and in spite of the extensive research on his life for centuries by his severe critics, that it was not possible to discover the mysterious teacher(s) through whom Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) might have learned all that?

It is known that Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) was opposed, ridiculed and persecuted for nearly 13 years by his own contemporaries. With this magnitude of severe enemies, was it not possible for them to prove to the masses that Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam)'s claim of revelation was sheer fabrication? Was it not possible for them to reveal and name of the person whom they alleged to be the human source or sources of his teachings? Even some of his adversaries who had made this assertion changed their minds later on and accused him, instead, of magic or being possessed by evil, etc. Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) was raised among his people and every aspect of his life was exposed to them, especially by the openness that characterizes tribal life in the desert. How could the multitudes of his contemporaries, including many of his close relatives who knew him so well, how could they believe in his truthfulness if they had any doubt that he was claiming credit for ideas taught to him by some other teachers without bothering to give them credit?

What kind of teacher might have taught Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) a coherent and complete religion that changed the face of history? Why didn't he or they (if any) speak against the alleged student who continued learning from them, while ignoring them and claiming some other divine source for his teachings?

How could many Jews and Christians amongst his contemporaries become Muslims and believe in his truthfulness if they knew he was copying from their scriptures or learning from their priests or rabbis?

It is known that some of the Qur'anic revelations to Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) were revealed in the presence of people. The Qur’an was revealed over the span of 23 years. Where then was that mysterious, perhaps invisible teacher of Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam)? How could he have hidden himself for so long? Or how could Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam), who was constantly surrounded by companions, was able to make frequent secret visits to that mysterious teacher or teachers for 23 years without even being caught once?

 


 
 
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Quote bronaz Replybullet Posted: 07 July 2013 at 2:42am
Mansoor, a well put forth argument..which ignores one fact that God is Spirit and Satan is an evil spirit....both of which cannot be seen.
Jesus called Satan a liar and a murderer from the onset.
A liar corrupts the truth and time and time again it has been proven that certain facts in the Quran dont stand to reason.Notable among them is the crucifixion of Jesus which the Quran denies.
It has been observed time and time again that Satan/evil spirits hates the sight of the crucifix. If that had to be Judas as the Quran espouses then what is there to be scared of, but if it is Jesus who is God who is crucified then there is a very good reason to be scared. Possessed people hate the sight of the crucifix. It stands to reason why the value of crucifixion had to be deflated. so you see why the same has been said in the Quran.
Lies can be stated in very poetic form, and I would like to remind you that Satan was one of the most powerful and beautiful angel before he became the devil. So intellectually he is very strong.
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NABA
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Quote NABA Replybullet Posted: 08 July 2013 at 11:02pm
Satan was not angel he is a jinn,angels are those creatures that do not disobey commandments of Allah,human beings and jinns are the two creations of Allah who possess free will,and that's Allah want to c whether after having free will we obey Allah or not,if U say Jesus(pbuh) is God and he is crucified,then how he is God????U urself contraindicating urself,because the concept of God is mentioned in Qur'an in ch 112 v 1-4-he is one,he is eternal,he is neither born nor begets,there is nothing like him.If U say God is crucified then who controlled the world for that period of time????means God died???it is truly illogical!!!!!Jesus Christ(pbuh) is the important messenger of Allah,he always said whatever I do I do with the help of Allah,worship him he is your lord and my lord.
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Quote bronaz Replybullet Posted: 09 July 2013 at 1:51am
My Dear NABA,
As the Bible states Satan was first an angel but because he disobeyed God, he was cast into hell and therefore became Satan.
Regarding the crucifixion, I know Muslims have a serious problem with that and you are no exceptions.
To be able to understand Christian theology we have to understand that
God transcends time and space
Since he is creator all the laws of the universe are subject to him. Which means he can do as he pleases..he can make it rain from a clear sky...to give an example.
If the Quran accepts the fact that Jesus could be conceived by Mary without having relations....because that is not logical then it should also accept the fact that God can become Man and since Jesus is the Second person in the Trinity, the work of God continued while he endured death on a cross. The Mystery is Jesus was both Divine and Human. The Human died on the Cross, the divine still lives on and will live to eternity.
If God can do anything and I believe you believe that...then everything is possible and the Christian theology is very sound...
If you do a search on Fatima, you will find that Mary appeared to three children and continued to do so for six months on the 13th of every month. This was witnessed by over 70,000 people. So the testimony of all cannot be wrong.  You can check out Wikipedia.... If that doesnt convince you, nothing will

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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 09 July 2013 at 9:38am
Originally posted by NABA

God died???it is truly illogical!!!!!

Greetings NABA,

34 who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?


18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.


For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please



I always suggest for people to read the book of Job to understand how the wisdom of God is higher than any we can aspire to have.  Is our wisdom higher than the wisdom of God that we should dispute against what He has  clearly shown to us, and done for us?

38 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

...

If you can please read the whole book of Job to gain understanding.

Salaam and blessings to you brother.


Edited by Caringheart - 09 July 2013 at 9:47am
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 09 July 2013 at 10:04am
Originally posted by Mansoor_ali


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There were Christians and Jews in Arabia long before the time of Mohammad. Mohammad knew the stories from the Torah and Injil through word of mouth. How else would he have known about all of the stories and prophets from the Torah and Injil. Including the creation story.

Not being able to read or write had nothing to do with it.


 My Reply


 Let me put forward some questions:

 "Why is it in spite of the abundance of historical material on Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam)'s life, and in spite of the extensive research on his life for centuries by his severe critics, that it was not possible to discover the mysterious teacher(s) through whom Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) might have learned all that?

It is known that Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) was opposed, ridiculed and persecuted for nearly 13 years by his own contemporaries. With this magnitude of severe enemies, was it not possible for them to prove to the masses that Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam)'s claim of revelation was sheer fabrication? Was it not possible for them to reveal and name of the person whom they alleged to be the human source or sources of his teachings? Even some of his adversaries who had made this assertion changed their minds later on and accused him, instead, of magic or being possessed by evil, etc. Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) was raised among his people and every aspect of his life was exposed to them, especially by the openness that characterizes tribal life in the desert. How could the multitudes of his contemporaries, including many of his close relatives who knew him so well, how could they believe in his truthfulness if they had any doubt that he was claiming credit for ideas taught to him by some other teachers without bothering to give them credit?

What kind of teacher might have taught Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) a coherent and complete religion that changed the face of history? Why didn't he or they (if any) speak against the alleged student who continued learning from them, while ignoring them and claiming some other divine source for his teachings?

How could many Jews and Christians amongst his contemporaries become Muslims and believe in his truthfulness if they knew he was copying from their scriptures or learning from their priests or rabbis?

It is known that some of the Qur'anic revelations to Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) were revealed in the presence of people. The Qur’an was revealed over the span of 23 years. Where then was that mysterious, perhaps invisible teacher of Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam)? How could he have hidden himself for so long? Or how could Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam), who was constantly surrounded by companions, was able to make frequent secret visits to that mysterious teacher or teachers for 23 years without even being caught once?

Greetings Mansoor_ali,

Tell me this does not sound familiar:
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars

7 Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

(And David saith) 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief,

These are all words from the Bible...
however the Bible goes on to say...
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.


I believe that Muhammad had heard the message but he did not bring the fullness of the message to his people.

Salaam.

Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
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NABA
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Quote NABA Replybullet Posted: 09 July 2013 at 10:36pm
dear bronaz in bible itself it is written in cornithians 11:14-Even Satan disguise itself as angels so I m a human so I need not need to b disguised as human similarly if Satan was angel he should not have need to b disguised as angel this shows bible also proves Satan was not angel,in Qur'an in ch 18 v 50-Satan was jinn,as I said that angels are created by Allah in such a way that they are here only to obey Allah,if a creature had free will then he is not an angel,I agree that Allah can do anything,but he will not do ungodly things,as mentioned in Surah Al Burooj ch 85 v 16-Allah does only those things what he intends to do.Allah doesn't do those things what we think with our limited memory.for eg U R well versed with tale of prophet Jonah(pbuh),he was in the stomach of whale for 3 days 3 nights,but what he do,he prayed to Allah but Allah answered his prayer in such a way that the whale vomit him out near the shore,normally when we think by ourselves we would have take him for granted that he is dead,but U can't predict what Allah can do,there is nothing like him(ch 112 v 4).Allah need not to become human at all,he is way above all needs.Allah in fact doesn't need us(ch 35 v 15),we worship him for our betterment.

Edited by NABA - 09 July 2013 at 10:40pm
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Quote bronaz Replybullet Posted: 10 July 2013 at 7:29am
Dear Naba,
You a missing a very important word which is Angel of Light. He is the Angel of darkness. Your definition of Angel is different from the Christian version which holds that they can only make one decision and that it is permanent, which is why Lucifer(name of Satan) became a devil .
have you ever spoken to a devil...
I have... and I cast them out in the name of Jesus
and it is the same as it is written in the Bible specially the Gospels.
So go ahead and believe what you want...I have read the truth and expeirienced it, which is why I can tell you that Islam is on the wrong track.

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