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 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : General : General Discussion
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Matt Browne
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Quote Matt Browne Replybullet Posted: 23 April 2013 at 12:49am
Okay, let's avoid the term Islamism. We need to say no to political Islam and the Sharia. We need to say no to anything in the Quran and the Sunnah that violates human rights and the laws of the countries we live in.

At its core, the Islamic faith is very tolerant of other faiths and beliefs, when it is based on particular interpretations of the Quran and the Sunnah. The Islamic faith can be very intolerant of other faiths and beliefs, when it is based on a different set of interpretations of the Quran and the Sunnah. Within the Muslim world we see a struggle between these two kinds of interpretations. Ignoring the troubling interpretations would be irresponsible. Their existence is a fact.

Muslims need to acknowledge that mainstream Islam is in urgent need of reform. It's not just a problem of a tiny violent minority. The Quran needs an interpretation that works in the 21st century. Islam has to go through the same painful process as Christianity did, going from burning witches and scientists to supporting the declaration of universal human rights.

We need to focus on the first step of radicalization, when a mainstream Muslim becomes a non-militant supporter of political Islam. Any religious talk that contradicts our Western values must be met with fierce opposition from our side. Any belittling of the Sharia ('we just use it as family law to settle disputes') must be met with fierce opposition from our side. Our countries must be completely Sharia free. There is only one institution allowed to make laws: we the people when we elect our representatives. The Sharia was invented 1000 years ago and it violates almost everything we hold dear in the West. It is cruel. It discriminates people. It is actually the Sharia which contains a law that says criticizing Islam is a crime. This is why critics of Islam often need police protection.

Islam has a noble future as a faith. But Islam has to stay away from all three political branches, i.e. the legislature, executive, and judiciary branch. That's the role of the state. Period.

Mustafa Kemal Atatürk introduced this modern principle in Turkey in 1923. So even without oil, Turkey has become one of the most successful Muslim countries in the world.



Edited by Matt Browne - 23 April 2013 at 12:51am
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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Matt Browne
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Quote Matt Browne Replybullet Posted: 23 April 2013 at 12:58am
Yes, Caringheart. All non-Muslims are in trouble when Muslims rule the world or a country, unless the ruling Muslims believe in a reformed Islam. Traditional Islam is basically an apartheid system. We Christians are treated like the black people were in South Africa during apartheid rule. All Islamic schools of law, Maliki, Hanafi, Shafi'i, Zahiri, Imami Shi'ite, Ahl al-Hadith, Jariri, Kharijite and so forth establish a system of cruelty and discrimination. Jews and Christians are second-class citizens. Hindus and atheists are treated as criminals with no rights.
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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abuayisha
 
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Quote abuayisha Replybullet Posted: 23 April 2013 at 6:35am
Matt, interesting that you have mentioned witches, because while they were being burned and tortured the sharia you fear so much was living in peace with other faiths and translating books important to all of mankind. Notwithstanding your xenophobia, your society is open and multicultural, therefore "our society" includes Muslims (no matter how much that scares you).  And if you really understood sharia you would know your touted values and your western society could never be "sharia free" because the very bases of sharia upholds a persons life, religion and wealth - there shall be no harm.  Therefore it is little wonder so many Muslims are living in "your" countries. Your values and ours are basically the same.  Anyway, the reason I spend so little time in the interfaith section of our forum is that people are going to believe what they want to believe, and you're quaking in your boots concerning our faith.
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 23 April 2013 at 10:05am
Originally posted by abuayisha

Well, pretty much what I thought; an irrational fear - " ... I may slip at some point and be overheard to express an opinion, I could end up at worst dead..."
 
In America about ten thousand people are killed each year by drunk drivers.  How many do you think die as a result of "overheard to express an opinion"?
 
Islamophobia.

Greetings abuayisha,
Yes... in the United States... a land of freedom and democracy and equal treatment of all...
How much longer will the United States remain that way?

Interesting how you honed in on one statement...
Did you completely ignore the rationality of the rest of what I wrote?
(This is why you spend so little time in interfaith discussion.)

Would you be content if, because of your individual beliefs and regardless of the fact that you were a good law abiding citizen, you were to be treated as a subjugated person?  Even when you behaved as every other God fearing person behaved?
Do you live in the United States where you are equal with all others regardless of the fact that you believe in Muhammad and his teachings, which may disagree with others, even of those who rule in the country?

Salaam,
Caringheart


Edited by Caringheart - 23 April 2013 at 10:06am
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 23 April 2013 at 10:13am
Rational discussion...
to quote Matt;
"Within the Muslim world we see a struggle between these two kinds of interpretations. Ignoring the troubling interpretations would be irresponsible. Their existence is a fact."

"It's not just a problem of a tiny violent minority. The Quran needs an interpretation that works in the 21st century. Islam has to go through the same painful process as Christianity did, going from burning witches and scientists to supporting the declaration of universal human rights."




Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 23 April 2013 at 10:14am
Abuayisha,
" Well, pretty much what I thought; an irrational fear - " ... I may slip at some point and be overheard to express an opinion, I could end up at worst dead..."

Why do you deny that this actually happens in Islamic states?

Salaam,
Caringheart
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
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Reepicheep
 
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Quote Reepicheep Replybullet Posted: 23 April 2013 at 2:53pm
abuayisha wrote:  it is little wonder so many Muslims are living in "your" countries. Your values and ours are basically the same.
 
Abuayisha, it appears that you share Irshad Manji's views on life in the west (i.e., you both have no real complaints about the Canadian and US legal systems), so neither of you are the type of muslims that us kuffar fear. 
 
What we fear are muslims who feel their religion gives them the right to commit terrorist acts (for example, the two muslim brothers who attacked the Boston marathon, or the two muslims who were arrested in Canada yesterday, who were planning to blow up a train travelling from Toronto to New York.)
 
In any case, I think we all agree that muslims who live in Canada and the USA have more religious freedom than muslims who live in any muslim majority country anywhere else in the world.


Edited by Reepicheep - 23 April 2013 at 6:27pm
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abuayisha
 
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Quote abuayisha Replybullet Posted: 23 April 2013 at 8:31pm
Originally posted by Reepicheep

  
What we fear are muslims who feel their religion gives them the right to commit terrorist acts
 
Indeed this is a troubling phenomenon, and Muslims throughout the west must learn the "narrative" these crazy ideologues spout, counter it, and ultimately, as New York's Mayor Bloomberg has said; 'when you see something say something'.  These guys need to brought to the attention of law enforcement whenever an individual's rhetoric has crossed the line.  I think one of the biggest challenges Muslims in the west face is wrapping their heads around the sad reality that one of their own actually do committ these heinous crimes.  Unfortuantely too much energy is wasted on conspriacy thinking. "sigh"
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