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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 20 April 2013 at 2:48pm
"We... need to become more creative to make future terror acts less likely, both by improving security and by engaging in an intelligent debate even if it makes some of us uncomfortable."

That one statement summed it up well for me.
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Blessed be God forever
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 20 April 2013 at 2:57pm
Originally posted by abuayisha


it doesn't surprise me that Quran, Boston bombing, violence, and the lesbian "reformer" of Islam, Irshad Manji, would all fit well for Matt; under "the Qur'an and peace thread".

[/QUOTE]

Ad hominem attack -
short for argumentum ad hominem, is an argument made against the person instead of against their argument.

"Ad hominem arguments work via the halo effect, a human cognitive bias in which the perception of one trait is influenced by the perception of an unrelated trait, e.g. treating an attractive person as more intelligent or more honest. People tend to see others as tending to be all good or tending to be all bad. Thus, if you can attribute a bad trait to your opponent, others will tend to doubt the quality of their arguments, even if the bad trait is irrelevant to the arguments."

I recommend taking the time to read and  give serious, sensible, consideration to the statements, rather than giving knee jerk reaction.
That is... if the goal you want... as I want... is peace. Smile

Salaam.

"- the term Islamophobia was invented to silence valid criticism; fear of Islamism is real and justified and it is not a mental illness"


Edited by Caringheart - 15 June 2014 at 9:32pm
Let us seek Truth together
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abuayisha
 
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Quote abuayisha Replybullet Posted: 20 April 2013 at 8:17pm
Well, Caringheart, perhaps you may want to explain exactly what you "fear" of "Islamism".  I can only assume you are equating Islamism with terrorism, and indeed this is a mistake in terms. With respect to Irshad Manji, she has a reformed opinion on the permissibility of being a queer in Islam.  I simply don't desire my daughter to marry a woman.
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 20 April 2013 at 10:26pm
May I? --
Originally posted by abuayisha

Well, Caringheart, perhaps you may want to explain exactly what you "fear" of "Islamism".  I can only assume you are equating Islamism with terrorism, and indeed this is a mistake in terms.
 
Islamism is political Islam -- the idea that Islam should be the basis of government, which amounts to the imposition of religion by force of law.  I would fear that regardless of whether the religion being imposed was Islam or Christianity or Hinduism or anything else. 
 
I disagree that Islamophobia is the fear of Islamism, however. Islamophobia is the fear of Islam in general, and hence of all Muslims.  It is essentially the idea that all Muslims are Islamists who desire to impose Islam on non-Muslims.
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Matt Browne
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Quote Matt Browne Replybullet Posted: 21 April 2013 at 2:45am
I'm not saying that outdated interpretations of Islam is the only root cause of terrorism. There is also terrorism committed in the name of nationalism (IRA, PKK...), in the name of right-wing ideologies (Timothy McVeigh, NSU...) and in the name of left-wing ideologies (FARC...).

I'm saying that we have to deal with all root causes. Just because people also kill in the name of fascism or Marxism-Leninism, this doesn't make the killings in the name of Islam any better.

I'm not saying that outdated interpretations of Islam is the only case of religious intolerance. There are also outdated interpretations of Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and so forth.

I'm saying that we have to deal with all forms of religious intolerance. Just because there is discrimination against women or homosexuals by some Christians, this doesn't make the discrimination against women or homosexuals by some Muslims any better.

Just like criticism of particular behavior and views of certain groups of Muslims and their interpretation of the Quran isn't Islamophobia,  criticism of particular behavior and views of certain groups of Christians and their interpretation of the Bible isn't Christianophobia.

Abuayisha hasn't come forward with a single counterargument to any of Irshad Manji's arguments listed in my previous post. There's only the pseudo-counterargument "she is a lesbian lunatic". Well, I call this intellectual bankruptcy. It includes the inability to think independently and the inability to counter criticism with arguments. Manji respects heterosexuals. And she never said that homosexuals should marry their partner. One can be against the idea of homosexual weddings, but still agree with many of the other 999 arguments Manji is making. Disagreement with one argument does not necessarily lead to disagreement with all the others.

The older brother in Boston committed a terrorist act in the name of Islam. Saying all of this has nothing to do with Islam doesn't solve anything. We need a debate about interpreting the Quran and the Sunnah.

In the past Christians killed witches and scientists in the name of Christianity. This led to a debate about interpreting the Bible.

Today people who criticize Christianity no longer need police protection.

Today people who criticize Islam still need police protection.

Unless we do something about this, this will not change. Political Islam has no future. We need a zero tolerance attitude for non-militant Islamism.

Without reform, Islam faces a very uncertain future. Manji wants to rescue the Islamic faith. She cares about Islam. And she cares about Muslims being able to be friends with Christians, Jews, Hindus and nonbelievers. She cares about peace and she is looking for ways how this can be accomplished. Her ideas are worthy of debate.

I fear Islamism, because it is cruel and it discriminates people. Islamism is a totalitarian system. Islamism is about abolishing human rights. We should all be afraid of Islamism. It is a threat to all of us. But above all, it is a serious threat to all modern peace-loving Muslims.




Edited by Matt Browne - 21 April 2013 at 3:03am
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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abuayisha
 
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Quote abuayisha Replybullet Posted: 21 April 2013 at 9:42am
Originally posted by Matt Browne

We need a zero tolerance attitude for non-militant Islamism.
 
Sounds like 'just say no to Islam'.  Anyway, I think we have a contradiction in terms, and a profound misunderstanding about certain buzzwords (Islamism), as well as, who speaks for Islam - (Irshad Manji is an nonstarter).  Perhaps several different threads will open to share and discuss these issues more specifically. After all, this thread's topic is Quran and peace.  Peace.
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 22 April 2013 at 7:52pm
Originally posted by abuayisha

Well, Caringheart, perhaps you may want to explain exactly what you "fear" of "Islamism".  I can only assume you are equating Islamism with terrorism, and indeed this is a mistake in terms. With respect to Irshad Manji, she has a reformed opinion on the permissibility of being a queer in Islam.  I simply don't desire my daughter to marry a woman.

Greetings abuayisha,

I would have no problem living with islam if islamic government would treat all people the same... regardless of whether or not they believed in Muhammad.  If I am able to adhere to the laws of the country and all the laws of God... dress code, I do not steal, I am honest and do not cheat or lie, or commit any crime against my country or my fellow countrymen... then why should I be treated any different from the rest... why should I pay any different tax than any other member of the country?  Why should I not serve my country the same as any other member of the country?  Why should I be denied the same rights and freedoms as any other?  In the past non-muslims were denied property rights... the right to own or even to ride horses... they had to leave the path in deference to any muslim that came their way... How is this right in the sight of God?

See the governing laws need to be able to make these accommodations, and will the islamic laws allow it?  To treat all people as equals.  God will judge whether or not we are equal in the next world, but in this world we are created equal... this is the biggest message of Yeshua... that all men are to be treated as brothers... as endowed with equal rights and freedoms... to treat one another as you would want to be treated... to treat one another as self.

My fear is that simply because I do not believe in Muhammad, and because I may slip at some point and be overheard to express an opinion, I could end up at worst dead, and at least, imprisoned.  It matters if I would not be free to speak about my own beliefs, while muslims were free to speak about theirs and to say whatever they wanted against my own, without punishment, yet I would be subject to punishment.  It matters not to be treated equally.

Do you know of anyone who would be content to be treated in their society as a person who was less than others?  Who had to watch every word that they say? ... Who had to 'lower their gaze' before certain people so as not to be mistaken as insolent?

The reason, I believe, that Islam does not work...  The laws that govern countries and its people must be able to change with the times and to meet the cultural needs.  The laws that govern spirituality do not change.

Salaam,
Caringheart

Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
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abuayisha
 
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Quote abuayisha Replybullet Posted: 22 April 2013 at 10:17pm
Well, pretty much what I thought; an irrational fear - " ... I may slip at some point and be overheard to express an opinion, I could end up at worst dead..."
 
In America about ten thousand people are killed each year by drunk drivers.  How many do you think die as a result of "overheard to express an opinion"?
 
Islamophobia.
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