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Nausheen
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Posted: 11 February 2013 at 10:16pm

Originally posted by nospam001

Originally posted by Nausheen

So, you do not have any bad christians, right? There is no weak believer in christianity. One is either a believer or a non-believer, correct? Do all christians believe the same?

In my experience there are lots of different types of Christians and plenty of 'weak' ones (in the sense that they appreciate the bible as a work of literature). But I gather your question is directed at fundamentalists, who would have a different opinion.

The original comment was worrisome, and still is. By analogy to how we have a mixture within Muslims I presumed there would be several weak christians who would still be regarded as christians in the broad sense.

Originally posted by nospam101

Originally posted by Nausheen

Why are you an agonist?

I don't see myself as a contestant, if that's what you mean by agonist.

Here is a good laugh for you. I miss-spelled agnostic - It was past midnight at my end when I was typing that post :)

Originally posted by nospam101

There was no rejecting or rebelling in my case. It's quite normal over here to be agnostic. As far as I can recall, even my grandparents did not attend church - aside from the obligatory "hatch, match & dispatch" services.

Cool

Would you explain a little further. Does this mean your grandparents were still christians, although you do not call yourself one?
What beliefs do you follow in particular?

Thank you.

Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.

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Nausheen
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Posted: 11 February 2013 at 10:44pm

Originally posted by TG12345

Salaam Alaikum Nausheen, and thank you for the question.

Walaikum Assalam, the pleasure is mine.

Originally posted by TG12345

I think believing in Christ means trying to follow Him, yes. A person who consciously lives in sin and does not try to change and in some cases does not even see it as wrong, or even worse a person who does horrible things like wage wars or abuse children in the name of Jesus or the Christian faith- that person is I believe not a Christian.

Do you mean this person is not following what he believes in, or simply he does not believe what he professes to believe?

To me there is a fine line between the two, thus all the fuss [IMG]smileys/smiley1.gif" align="middle" />

Originally posted by TG12345

I think some Christians struggle with sin more effectively than others do and take prayer and other things Jesus required more seriously than others do, and others less so. As we are all sinners, we all need God's grace and forgiveness and it isn't up to us to condemn others.I think a Christian can definitely struggle with things like alcholol, drugs, pornography, anger, homosexuality, greed, many other things... but the key thing is that he or she struggles with these things and recognizes they are sins and comes forward to God and repents when he or she falls and tries not to again... and this may require a lot of falling and coming back up and asking for forgiveness and trying to follow better and then falling and asking for forgiveness and trying again... I know a person in my church who was an alcoholic before he became a believer and it took him several years after that to kick the habit... now he never touches a drink, even in moderation. I will be very honest with you, before I became a believer I was using pornography and became a addicted to it... I struggled with pornography for a very long time after I put my faith in Jesus and this terrible habit was eventually broken and I am free from it alhamdullilah. It required a lot of prayer, asking God for forgiveness when I fell, seeking the help of my brothers in Christ to whom I was accountable, setting filters on my computer, talking and praying with my pastor... the addiction was eventually broken and there was a lot of work involved in doing it. Others may struggle with a vice their entire lives and never be entirely free of it.Christians are not sin-free. But it is one thing to struggle against a sin (and we are all sinners) and another thing to not even acknowledge something is wrong. It's one thing to shamefully recognize one has sinned against God and to decide to do everything to not do so again; and another to say "hey this (insert sinful habit here) is ok. It's "natural"... "everyone does it"... God doesn't even care anyways..."Do you see what I am saying?

Essentially I understand what an ideal christian would be like.

Was thinking though, if a person believes there is one God, who sent prophets and scriptures, and beleives there is heaven and hell - but he does not obey that one God, nor does he follow the scriptures ...
what does christianity say about his belief? [Lets keep his actions aside for a while and focus on what is in the heart.]

Are you saying this person does not have God/Jesus in his heart? That the belief is altogether absent from the heart?

Im asking because I think belief is not equal to practice / following.
I think belief is necessary for practicing, and is incomplete without practicing but its not absent from the heart altogether just because it is not reflected in actions.

Is there any difference between a godless person, and one who does not obey God, though believes there is a Maker who sent messages of guidance to mankind?

Does the christian faith see any fine line between the two kinds?

Thank you for your response. It does help.

Edited by Nausheen - 11 February 2013 at 10:49pm

Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.

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Nausheen
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Posted: 11 February 2013 at 10:56pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings Nausheen,I hope you don't mind me jumping in. I just had a couple of thoughts.

"Do all christians believe the same?"

I think I can safely say that no, all Christians do not believe the same.Just like Sunni's, Shia's, Sufi's, and Wahabbi's don't believe the same but I am sure that there are 'believers'(and God will be the judge) in each of those groups.

Greetings Caringheart,
Thank you for your input.

Are you saying that for instance, a robber, a murderer, a rapist etc who believes there is God/Jesus -
In reality he does believe though his actions are not in accordance to what he beleives.

Will that be a correct conclusion of your statement?

thank you.

Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.

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Caringheart

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Posted: 12 February 2013 at 12:58pm

Greetings Nausheen,

If I may jump in again...

"Are you saying this person does not have God/Jesus in his heart? That the belief is altogether absent from the heart? "

I would say, not so much that belief is absent, but that the conscience is dulled.. it is when a person is blinded and misled, by the lies of the world... by the ruler of this world, and this can be done in so many ways.

"I think belief is necessary for practicing, and is incomplete without practicing but its not absent from the heart altogether just because it is not reflected in actions. "

I think this was what TG was referring to when he spoke of weak belief... when one is struggling against his sin nature, they can be said to be in denial... I would say this is comparable to inner Jihad... one has belief but must fight against their sinful nature.

Paul puts it this way;
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.
15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do, I do not do, but[I do] what I hate I do.

"Is there any difference between a godless person, and one who does not obey God, though believes there is a Maker who sent messages of guidance to mankind? "

Yes. It is called being in denial... knowing that there is a God but denying the necessity of obeying Him. Lying to oneself, trusting in the mind of man, believing that belief in God is enough, that God will forgive whatever we do, or that it really doesn't matter... we can find so many reasons not to obey God... essentially believing the lies of this world, falling into the temptations of this world and finding excuses for it, or just plain old having a heart so dulled that it refuses to recognize the sin... just like Pharaoh with his heart too hard to see the truth that was before him.
It is only in coming out of this denial, recognizing the love of God and what we owe to Him, when we turn ourselves over to God in obedience, that we experience the fullness of His grace and freedom from the sinful nature, and what it truly means to belong to God.

I think the Christian faith always seeks to lead with love to draw a person towards God, towards the recognition of their need for God, and out of their denial. It is through love that hearts for God are won. Sometimes, yes, this does mean tough love. Sometimes it is pain that is needed to drive one towards God. Pain can either drive one towards God, or away from God, but in the end it is God that we need to be free of our pain... but we must come to choose Him for ourselves. I think Christians try to be there with love when the pain drives a person to finally seek God, if that is the path a person's life has taken them to find God.

my two cents... Wink

Edited by Caringheart - 12 February 2013 at 1:03pm

Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever

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Caringheart

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Posted: 12 February 2013 at 1:39pm

Originally posted by Nausheen

Greetings Caringheart,
Thank you for your input.

Are you saying that for instance, a robber, a murderer, a rapist etc who believes there is God/Jesus -
In reality he does believe though his actions are not in accordance to what he beleives.

Will that be a correct conclusion of your statement?

thank you.

Greetings Nausheen,

I think only God can plunge the depths of a persons heart.
The correct conclusion is, that it is beyond me to understand when people commit evil, whether God is temporarily displaced from that persons heart, or whether He was never there to begin with. Only God can know who can be redeemed, and only God can decide when they are forever lost.
I do know that when one commits an evil act they are not acting for God... God is absent at that time. This does not necessarily mean they can not find Him later.
Does that make sense?

Salaam,
Caringheart

Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever

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nospam001
Male Agnostic
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Joined: 02 October 2012
Location: Australia
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Posted: 12 February 2013 at 6:46pm

Originally posted by nospam001

There was no rejecting or rebelling in my case. It's quite normal over here to be agnostic. As far as I can recall, even my grandparents did not attend church - aside from the obligatory "hatch, match & dispatch" services.

Originally posted by Nausheen

Would you explain a little further. Does this mean your grandparents were still christians, although you do not call yourself one?

Hi Nausheen

It wasn't discussed, but I gather they had already stopped believing before my parents were born.
(Do you stay away from weddings if they happen to be in a church? I assume not. Neither would an agnostic.)

What beliefs do you follow in particular?

The beliefs I 'follow' are all the things that most people take for granted: basic laws of nature, arithmetic & reason, cause and effect, the existence of other minds, and so on. If you mean 'what beliefs do ~~agonists~~agnostics follow' then there's a good intro on Wikipedia. For me personally, as I've said, I'd rate myself about a 5 on Dawkins' 7-point scale. More evolution than Creation but, like J B S Haldane, my views could change tomorrow.

God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.

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Author	Message
Nausheen Female Islam Senior Member Senior Member Joined: 10 January 2001 Location: Japan Online Status: Offline Posts: 4146	Posted: 11 February 2013 at 10:16pm
	*Originally posted by nospam001* *Originally posted by Nausheen* So, you do not have any bad christians, right? There is no weak believer in christianity. One is either a believer or a non-believer, correct? Do all christians believe the same? In my experience there are lots of different types of Christians and plenty of 'weak' ones (in the sense that they appreciate the bible as a work of literature). But I gather your question is directed at fundamentalists, who would have a different opinion. The original comment was worrisome, and still is. By analogy to how we have a mixture within Muslims I presumed there would be several weak christians who would still be regarded as christians in the broad sense. *Originally posted by nospam101* *Originally posted by Nausheen* Why are you an agonist? I don't see myself as a contestant, if that's what you mean by agonist. Here is a good laugh for you. I miss-spelled agnostic - It was past midnight at my end when I was typing that post :) *Originally posted by nospam101* There was no rejecting or rebelling in my case. It's quite normal over here to be agnostic. As far as I can recall, even my grandparents did not attend church - aside from the obligatory "hatch, match & dispatch" services. Cool Would you explain a little further. Does this mean your grandparents were still christians, although you do not call yourself one? What beliefs do you follow in particular? Thank you.
	Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Nausheen Female Islam Senior Member Senior Member Joined: 10 January 2001 Location: Japan Online Status: Offline Posts: 4146	Posted: 11 February 2013 at 10:44pm
	*Originally posted by TG12345* Salaam Alaikum Nausheen, and thank you for the question. Walaikum Assalam, the pleasure is mine. *Originally posted by TG12345* I think believing in Christ means trying to follow Him, yes. A person who consciously lives in sin and does not try to change and in some cases does not even see it as wrong, or even worse a person who does horrible things like wage wars or abuse children in the name of Jesus or the Christian faith- that person is I believe not a Christian. Do you mean this person is not following what he believes in, or simply he does not believe what he professes to believe? To me there is a fine line between the two, thus all the fuss [IMG]smileys/smiley1.gif" align="middle" /> *Originally posted by TG12345* I think some Christians struggle with sin more effectively than others do and take prayer and other things Jesus required more seriously than others do, and others less so. As we are all sinners, we all need God's grace and forgiveness and it isn't up to us to condemn others.I think a Christian can definitely struggle with things like alcholol, drugs, pornography, anger, homosexuality, greed, many other things... but the key thing is that he or she struggles with these things and recognizes they are sins and comes forward to God and repents when he or she falls and tries not to again... and this may require a lot of falling and coming back up and asking for forgiveness and trying to follow better and then falling and asking for forgiveness and trying again... I know a person in my church who was an alcoholic before he became a believer and it took him several years after that to kick the habit... now he never touches a drink, even in moderation. I will be very honest with you, before I became a believer I was using pornography and became a addicted to it... I struggled with pornography for a very long time after I put my faith in Jesus and this terrible habit was eventually broken and I am free from it alhamdullilah. It required a lot of prayer, asking God for forgiveness when I fell, seeking the help of my brothers in Christ to whom I was accountable, setting filters on my computer, talking and praying with my pastor... the addiction was eventually broken and there was a lot of work involved in doing it. Others may struggle with a vice their entire lives and never be entirely free of it.Christians are not sin-free. But it is one thing to struggle against a sin (and we are all sinners) and another thing to not even acknowledge something is wrong. It's one thing to shamefully recognize one has sinned against God and to decide to do everything to not do so again; and another to say "hey this (insert sinful habit here) is ok. It's "natural"... "everyone does it"... God doesn't even care anyways..."Do you see what I am saying? Essentially I understand what an ideal christian would be like. Was thinking though, if a person believes there is one God, who sent prophets and scriptures, and beleives there is heaven and hell - but he does not obey that one God, nor does he follow the scriptures ... what does christianity say about his belief? [Lets keep his actions aside for a while and focus on what is in the heart.] Are you saying this person does not have God/Jesus in his heart? That the belief is altogether absent from the heart? Im asking because I think belief is not equal to practice / following. I think belief is necessary for practicing, and is incomplete without practicing but its not absent from the heart altogether just because it is not reflected in actions. Is there any difference between a godless person, and one who does not obey God, though believes there is a Maker who sent messages of guidance to mankind? Does the christian faith see any fine line between the two kinds? Thank you for your response. It does help. Edited by Nausheen - 11 February 2013 at 10:49pm
	Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Nausheen Female Islam Senior Member Senior Member Joined: 10 January 2001 Location: Japan Online Status: Offline Posts: 4146	Posted: 11 February 2013 at 10:56pm
	*Originally posted by Caringheart* Greetings Nausheen,I hope you don't mind me jumping in. I just had a couple of thoughts. "Do all christians believe the same?" I think I can safely say that no, all Christians do not believe the same.Just like Sunni's, Shia's, Sufi's, and Wahabbi's don't believe the same but I am sure that there are 'believers'(and God will be the judge) in each of those groups. Greetings Caringheart, Thank you for your input. Are you saying that for instance, a robber, a murderer, a rapist etc who believes there is God/Jesus - In reality he does believe though his actions are not in accordance to what he beleives. Will that be a correct conclusion of your statement? thank you.
	Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Caringheart Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1331	Posted: 12 February 2013 at 12:58pm
	Greetings Nausheen, If I may jump in again... "Are you saying this person does not have God/Jesus in his heart? That the belief is altogether absent from the heart? " I would say, not so much that belief is absent, but that the conscience is dulled.. it is when a person is blinded and misled, by the lies of the world... by the ruler of this world, and this can be done in so many ways. "I think belief is necessary for practicing, and is incomplete without practicing but its not absent from the heart altogether just because it is not reflected in actions. " I think this was what TG was referring to when he spoke of weak belief... when one is struggling against his sin nature, they can be said to be in denial... I would say this is comparable to inner Jihad... one has belief but must fight against their sinful nature. Paul puts it this way; 21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do, I do not do, but[I do] what I hate I do. "Is there any difference between a godless person, and one who does not obey God, though believes there is a Maker who sent messages of guidance to mankind? " Yes. It is called being in denial... knowing that there is a God but denying the necessity of obeying Him. Lying to oneself, trusting in the mind of man, believing that belief in God is enough, that God will forgive whatever we do, or that it really doesn't matter... we can find so many reasons not to obey God... essentially believing the lies of this world, falling into the temptations of this world and finding excuses for it, or just plain old having a heart so dulled that it refuses to recognize the sin... just like Pharaoh with his heart too hard to see the truth that was before him. It is only in coming out of this denial, recognizing the love of God and what we owe to Him, when we turn ourselves over to God in obedience, that we experience the fullness of His grace and freedom from the sinful nature, and what it truly means to belong to God. I think the Christian faith always seeks to lead with love to draw a person towards God, towards the recognition of their need for God, and out of their denial. It is through love that hearts for God are won. Sometimes, yes, this does mean tough love. Sometimes it is pain that is needed to drive one towards God. Pain can either drive one towards God, or away from God, but in the end it is God that we need to be free of our pain... but we must come to choose Him for ourselves. I think Christians try to be there with love when the pain drives a person to finally seek God, if that is the path a person's life has taken them to find God. my two cents... Edited by Caringheart - 12 February 2013 at 1:03pm
	Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever
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Caringheart Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1331	Posted: 12 February 2013 at 1:39pm
	*Originally posted by Nausheen* Greetings Caringheart, Thank you for your input. Are you saying that for instance, a robber, a murderer, a rapist etc who believes there is God/Jesus - In reality he does believe though his actions are not in accordance to what he beleives. Will that be a correct conclusion of your statement? thank you. Greetings Nausheen, I think only God can plunge the depths of a persons heart. The correct conclusion is, that it is beyond me to understand when people commit evil, whether God is temporarily displaced from that persons heart, or whether He was never there to begin with. Only God can know who can be redeemed, and only God can decide when they are forever lost. I do know that when one commits an evil act they are not acting for God... God is absent at that time. This does not necessarily mean they can not find Him later. Does that make sense? Salaam, Caringheart
	Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever
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nospam001 Male Agnostic Senior Member Joined: 02 October 2012 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 150	Posted: 12 February 2013 at 6:46pm
	*Originally posted by nospam001* There was no rejecting or rebelling in my case. It's quite normal over here to be agnostic. As far as I can recall, even my grandparents did not attend church - aside from the obligatory "hatch, match & dispatch" services. *Originally posted by Nausheen* Would you explain a little further. Does this mean your grandparents were still christians, although you do not call yourself one? Hi Nausheen It wasn't discussed, but I gather they had already stopped believing before my parents were born. (Do you stay away from weddings if they happen to be in a church? I assume not. Neither would an agnostic.) What beliefs do you follow in particular? The beliefs I 'follow' are all the things that most people take for granted: basic laws of nature, arithmetic & reason, cause and effect, the existence of other minds, and so on. If you mean 'what beliefs do ~~agonists~~agnostics follow' then there's a good intro on Wikipedia. For me personally, as I've said, I'd rate myself about a 5 on Dawkins' 7-point scale. More evolution than Creation but, like J B S Haldane, my views could change tomorrow.
	God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.
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