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Interfaith Dialogue
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Placid
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 08 March 2013 at 6:13am
Hi Nirvana,

I want to add something else that you and Webber may want to consider, and respond to.
Most of my posts end up being longer than I plan to make them, but I want to give what the Scripture says.
If you don’t believe any Scriptures, then it doesn’t matter, --- but I want to suggest that since the people of the world see death as the finality, --- they emphasize the death on the cross, as the end.

However, the ‘victory’ over death, is in the ‘resurrection.’ --- This incident is recorded in John 11:
1 Now a certain man was sick, Lazarus of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha.
2 It was that Mary who anointed the Lord with fragrant oil and wiped His feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick. --- (A home where Jesus and the disciples often visited.)
3 Therefore the sisters sent to Him, saying, “Lord, behold, he whom You love is sick.”
4 When Jesus heard that, He said, “This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified through it.”
5 Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus.
6 So, when He heard that he was sick, He stayed two more days in the place where He was.

14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead.
15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, that you may believe. Nevertheless let us go to him.”
17 So when Jesus came, He found that he had already been in the tomb four days.
18 Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, about two miles away.
19 And many of the Jews had joined the women around Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.

20 Now Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met Him, but Mary was sitting in the house.
21 Now Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.
22 But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.”

--- (This was the great faith they had in Jesus, --- that had He come before Lazarus died, He could have healed him. --- I have heard of a Jewish tradition that at physical death, the spirit remains with the body for three days, but after that there was no hope of reviving a body, as deterioration was too great.
At any rate Jesus waited till four days after his death and burial. He told the disciples in v15, “I was glad I was not there, THAT YOU MAY BELIEVE. --- But Martha said, “But even now, I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give you.”

23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.
26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die

32 Then, when Mary came where Jesus was, and saw Him, she fell down at His feet, saying to Him, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.”
--- (She said the same words. --- And Jesus ‘was troubled in spirit,’ because of their great sorrow.)
33 Therefore, when Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who came with her weeping, He groaned in the spirit and was troubled.
34 And He said, “Where have you laid him?” They said to Him, “Lord, come and see.”
35 Jesus wept. --- (The shortest verse in the NT. --- Even though Jesus knew what He would do, --- He wept with them.)
36 Then the Jews said, “See how He loved him!”
37 And some of them said, “Could not this Man, who opened the eyes of the blind, also have kept this man from dying?”

38 Then Jesus, again groaning in Himself, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone lay against it.
39 Jesus said, “Take away the stone.”
Martha, the sister of him who was dead, said to Him, “Lord, by this time there is a stench, for he has been dead four days.”

40 Jesus said to her, “Did I not say to you that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?”
41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead man was lying. And Jesus lifted up His eyes and said, “Father, I thank You that You have heard Me.
42 And I know that You always hear Me, but because of the people who are standing by I said this, that they may believe that You sent Me.”
43 Now when He had said these things, He cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth!”
44 And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with graveclothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Loose him, and let him go.”

This impossible miracle (in the minds of the Jews, and even the disciples) was done to show that Jesus had been given power over death, --- and it was to show them that He, too, would die and be resurrected according to God’s promise. --- This is recorded in Mark 8:
31 And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

The raising of Lazarus was a living example of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, that they might believe what He was teaching them.


Placid

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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 09 March 2013 at 9:18am
Hi Nirvana,

There is one last passage of Scripture that I want to add concerning the resurrection.
If you say, you don’t believe in any Scriptures, --- then you don’t have to believe in these either.

--- I want to mention first, --- the word ‘infallible,’ is not found in the Quran, nor in the Old Testament.
It is only found ONCE in the New Testament, and it doesn’t refer to any man being ‘infallible.’
It was written by Luke, who was a medical doctor, and a historian, but it is not in the Gospel of Luke.

--- In his Gospel account, Luke, who was Greek, addresses it to Theophilus, and says this in Luke 1:
1 Inasmuch as many have taken in hand to set in order a narrative of those things which have been fulfilled among us,
2 just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word, delivered them to us,
3 it seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write to you an orderly account, most excellent Theophilus,
4 that you may know the certainty of those things in which you were instructed.

--- Then Luke became a companion of Paul on some missionary journeys, and accompanied him to Rome, and wrote an orderly account of “The Acts of the Apostles,” --- where he says again in Acts 1:
1 The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2 until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen,
3 to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many ‘infallible’ proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.
--- So these proofs of the resurrection of Jesus Christ to eye witnesses, --- were the ‘infallible' proof.

This evidence is given in 1 Corinthians 15:
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,
5 and that He was seen by Cephas (Peter), then by the twelve.
6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present (the time of writing), but some have fallen asleep.
7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles.

And this is the Scripture that I want to present from 1 Peter 3:
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

--- I am not going to say I understand the depth of these verses, but the truth of Scripture does not depend on us understanding it, but rather, whether we believe it as a message from God, --- which gives us the hope of resurrection, --- and eternal life for believers, as both the Bible and the Quran promise.

However, --- it speaks of the flood where (8 souls) Noah and his wife and their three sons and their wives, were carried in the Ark above the flood waters.
But it speaks of another group who were, ‘disobedient,’ --- and were lost in the water. But their ‘souls’ (or as it says in v19, their ‘spirits’) were kept in ‘a prison of death’

--- The physical body of Jesus had to die, but because He was ‘without sin’ He could not be held in this ‘prison of death,’ --- but rather He (in the Spirit) preached (gave the message of God’s salvation for believers) to these ‘disobedient’ ones, whose lives were cut short in the flood.
--- If they had been ‘believers’ by having ‘a good conscience toward God’ (though disobedient), they would be ‘released’ and taken to heaven. --- (This would have happened during the three days that Jesus’ body was in the tomb.)
--- So here we have ‘victory over death’ for this group from the time of Noah, --- and the ‘victory over death’ in Matthew of the ‘saints that rose from their graves’ when Jesus died on the cross.

And again it says in 1 Corinthians 15:
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
53 For this corruptible (physical being) must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”]
55 “O Death, where is your sting? --- O Hades, where is your victory?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

--- (The symbol of Baptism in v21): --- A person has to be a believer before the symbol has any meaning.
--- They are taken into the water, (either open water as a river, or a Baptistry) and they are lowered under the water so that the water closes over their face, --- then they are raised up again in the water. --- the symbolism is that they are ‘buried' (as with Christ) under the water (as Jesus was buried in the tomb) and they rise again (as Jesus was resurrected) --- which is a testimony of their ‘new life’ in Christ.

So this is the wonderful Message of the Gospel. --- People may choose not to believe it, --- but just so they know this is God’s plan of salvation, --- and that it is there for those who will believe.


Placid

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Quote nirvana Replybullet Posted: 09 March 2013 at 12:05pm
Originally posted by Placid

Hi Nirvana,

I want to add something else that you and Webber may want to consider, and respond to.
Most of my posts end up being longer than I plan to make them, but I want to give what the Scripture says.
If you don’t believe any Scriptures, then it doesn’t matter, --- but I want to suggest that since the people of the world see death as the finality, --- they emphasize the death on the cross, as the end.

However, the ‘victory’ over death, is in the ‘resurrection.’ --- This incident is recorded in John 11:
1 Now a certain man was sick, Lazarus of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha.
2 It was that Mary who anointed the Lord with fragrant oil and wiped His feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick. --- (A home where Jesus and the disciples often visited.)
3 Therefore the sisters sent to Him, saying, “Lord, behold, he whom You love is sick.”
4 When Jesus heard that, He said, “This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified through it.”
5 Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus.
6 So, when He heard that he was sick, He stayed two more days in the place where He was.

14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead.
15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, that you may believe. Nevertheless let us go to him.”
17 So when Jesus came, He found that he had already been in the tomb four days.
18 Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, about two miles away.
19 And many of the Jews had joined the women around Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.

20 Now Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met Him, but Mary was sitting in the house.
21 Now Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.
22 But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.”

--- (This was the great faith they had in Jesus, --- that had He come before Lazarus died, He could have healed him. --- I have heard of a Jewish tradition that at physical death, the spirit remains with the body for three days, but after that there was no hope of reviving a body, as deterioration was too great.
At any rate Jesus waited till four days after his death and burial. He told the disciples in v15, “I was glad I was not there, THAT YOU MAY BELIEVE. --- But Martha said, “But even now, I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give you.”

23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.
26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die

32 Then, when Mary came where Jesus was, and saw Him, she fell down at His feet, saying to Him, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.”
--- (She said the same words. --- And Jesus ‘was troubled in spirit,’ because of their great sorrow.)
33 Therefore, when Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who came with her weeping, He groaned in the spirit and was troubled.
34 And He said, “Where have you laid him?” They said to Him, “Lord, come and see.”
35 Jesus wept. --- (The shortest verse in the NT. --- Even though Jesus knew what He would do, --- He wept with them.)
36 Then the Jews said, “See how He loved him!”
37 And some of them said, “Could not this Man, who opened the eyes of the blind, also have kept this man from dying?”

38 Then Jesus, again groaning in Himself, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone lay against it.
39 Jesus said, “Take away the stone.”
Martha, the sister of him who was dead, said to Him, “Lord, by this time there is a stench, for he has been dead four days.”

40 Jesus said to her, “Did I not say to you that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?”
41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead man was lying. And Jesus lifted up His eyes and said, “Father, I thank You that You have heard Me.
42 And I know that You always hear Me, but because of the people who are standing by I said this, that they may believe that You sent Me.”
43 Now when He had said these things, He cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth!”
44 And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with graveclothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Loose him, and let him go.”

This impossible miracle (in the minds of the Jews, and even the disciples) was done to show that Jesus had been given power over death, --- and it was to show them that He, too, would die and be resurrected according to God’s promise. --- This is recorded in Mark 8:
31 And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

The raising of Lazarus was a living example of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, that they might believe what He was teaching them.


Placid

i did not get the point of this post.
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 11 March 2013 at 9:57am
Hi Nirvana,

The point of the first post that you are referring to is that when Jesus spoke of His ‘death, burial, and resurrection,’ --- no one really understood what He was telling them --- so, the story of Lazarus dying, and being dead four days before being resurrected, --- had happened just two or three weeks before the Passover, when Jesus went through death, and after three days was resurrected.

In your title “Believe or die.” --- Either ‘believe’ and be resurrected to eternal life, or disbelieve and be separated from God for eternity.


Lazarus was restored to physical life,
Jesus was resurrected in a Spiritual body, --- and in the sight of the disciples was later caught up to heaven.


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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 12 March 2013 at 1:49pm
Hi,

The last long post lists two resurrection of peole from the time of Jesus death, who were translated to heaven.

They did not have to wait for a final judgment, because they were already judged as being righteous.
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Quote nirvana Replybullet Posted: 13 March 2013 at 5:09am
Originally posted by Placid

Hi,

The last long post lists two resurrection of peole from the time of Jesus death, who were translated to heaven.

They did not have to wait for a final judgment, because they were already judged as being righteous.
which two people?
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 18 March 2013 at 6:49am
Hi Nirvana.

Quote: The last long post lists two resurrection of peole from the time of Jesus death, who were translated to heaven.
They did not have to wait for a final judgment, because they were already judged as being righteous.
--- Which two people?

Response: --- The first group I referred to was that of the believers, called ‘saints,’ who were raised from the dead, and appeared in Jerusalem after His resurrection. In Matthew 27:
50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.
51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split,
52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

The second group was of those who had perished in the flood and it said were “disobedient in the days of Noah”
--- If there were some who were believers, but 'disobedient,' then God would know their worthiness to be saved. --- So this reveals that the Soul is eternal and God is the final judge.

And this is the Scripture that I presented from 1 Peter 3:
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
19 by whom also He went and preached (proclaimed the Message of Victory over death) to the spirits in prison,
20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the Ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.



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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 18 March 2013 at 7:42am
Hi Webber,

Sorry I have dominated this topic with my long posts.

However, about half way down on Page 3, in response to your post, Nirvana asked:

"What does the Bible say about prayer?"
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