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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: BELIEVE OR DIE Post Reply Post New Topic
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nirvana
 
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Quote nirvana Replybullet Topic: BELIEVE OR DIE
    Posted: 05 February 2013 at 5:53am
Some body likened religion to a robbery/mugging. in religion it is 'believe in this or endure eternal torture' robbers say 'give me your belongings or die'.is it really a choice. nobody wants to get hurt, right. so most end up believing no matter how disturbing their religion is out of fear of eternal torture.what do you think?
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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 05 February 2013 at 6:31pm
Originally posted by nirvana

Some body likened religion to a robbery/mugging. in religion it is 'believe in this or endure eternal torture' robbers say 'give me your belongings or die'.is it really a choice. nobody wants to get hurt, right. so most end up believing no matter how disturbing their religion is out of fear of eternal torture.what do you think?


Dear Nirvan,

Welcome to Islamicity. may you cherish the time you spend here and we may we both learn something good from eachother.

Your screen name suggests you are a Budhhists, though am not sure. If you would like to clarify, it may assist in our dialogues here.

Honestly I don’t know if Budhhists believe in one true God. We believe that God is the Creator, and everything besides Him is His creation. Our life, health, prosperity and all the blessings we enjoy in this life – we do not have power on any of this. The One who is controlling all of it is the One who has created these for us.
Thus, we do not have a right over ourselves in a manner which excludes the right of God upon us. Therefore, it becomes incumbent of us to worship Him and serve Him. Along with this, it becomes incumbent upon us that we do not make any from His creation a sharer in His worship.

Those who do this are saved and those who do not are doomed in next life.

Going back to your question, since we do not possess our souls, we do not have a right to lead it on a path of eternal destruction and loss. Rather our duty is to train it on the path of eternal salvation. People do this out of fear, it’s a very natural and prompt response, but a deeper and well thought choice also dictates one to work for ones salvation. The One Who demands this from us is not a robber, rather our Creator who intends good for us.

It is said in the Quran that people are dragged to paradise in chains. This is a very metaphorical verse with multidimensional meanings. My knowledge cannot encompass all its aspects, but it is sketching the picture of a prisoner entering a jail when it relates to the people of paradise. It is also giving us a picture that people are not going there through their own will, rather they are dragged, as if forced into it … forced there, because that is the place where they belong. Through their own understanding and choosing they may want something which is easier in this life, thus are restricted in chains (through the laws of their Creator), they are not given a choice but to adhere to that which ultimately leads them to this final destination. This is the ultimate outcome of religion. Although we are not controlled physically or intellectually – apparently we are given a free will to choose, and act according to that. Those who choose the path of paradise, they find rules governing them, their freedom is restricted and they are expected to surrender this free will to the Will of God.

Surrendering of the free will is not robbery, because robbery deprives us of our belongins, its strips us off that which is useful and beneficial. Here this is not happening. The One who is in control of all affairs, takes our affairs in His protection and gives us better than what we are capable of giving ourselves.

Peace.
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Abu Loren
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 06 February 2013 at 2:08am
Masha'Allah good answer from sister Nausheen. JazakhAllah Khair!
 
Mr. Nirvana God made us so He can do whatever He wishes right? He is the potter and we are the clay therefore it is His prerogative what He does with his creation.
 
In every country of the world there are laws that it's citizens must follow, if they disobey they are rebelling and would be labelled a criminal.
 
God made us and gave us intrstructions in how to live our daily lives according to His pleasure. We must strive to please Him in every way, and everything apart from obeying Him is disobedience and siding with satan the most rebellious of creatures. He has given us a choice follow His laws or follow satan. Whichever you choose will result in your destiny, so one can choose  to go to heaven or hell. By disobeying His commands you are in fact choosing to go to hell. Why are we given free will?
 
When you surrender to Him you will understand all of these things, you will only understand these things when you have a humble heart and get rid of your arrogance. Total surrender is to be the goal of every soul that is created. Research what it is to be a Muslim.
 
Muhsin Khan
 
I shall turn away from My Ayat (verses of the Quran) those who behave arrogantly on the earth, without a right, and (even) if they see all the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), they will not believe in them. And if they see the way of righteousness (monotheism, piety, and good deeds), they will not adopt it as the Way, but if they see the way of error (polytheism, crimes and evil deeds), they will adopt that way, that is because they have rejected Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and were heedless (to learn a lesson) from them.
Those who deny Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and the Meeting in the Hereafter (Day of Resurrection,), vain are their deeds. Do they  expect to be rewarded with anything except what they used to do? 7:46-47


Edited by Abu Loren - 06 February 2013 at 4:51am
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nirvana
 
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Quote nirvana Replybullet Posted: 06 February 2013 at 3:49am
reply to Nausheen

Your screen name suggests you are a Budhhists, though am not sure. If you would like to clarify, it may assist in our dialogues here.
i am agnostic

People do this out of fear, it’s a very natural and prompt response, but a deeper and well thought choice also dictates one to work for ones salvation.
those who believe in any religion stick to it out of fear. when discussing religion with a non religious person, their strongest point is that if the non believer continues down that path, they will suffer forever. fear is the bottom line.


Our life, health, prosperity and all the blessings we enjoy in this life – we do not have power on any of this.
this is another disturbing point. everything is in the control of God, so we are really not responsible for our actions.



The One Who demands this from us is not a robber, rather our Creator who intends good for us.
then remove hell and give everybody righteous souls.
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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 07 February 2013 at 10:59pm
Originally posted by nirvana

reply to Nausheen

Your screen name suggests you are a Budhhists, though am not sure. If you would like to clarify, it may assist in our dialogues here.
i am agnostic


Thank you for your response.



Originally posted by nirvana

People do this out of fear, it’s a very natural and prompt response, but a deeper and well thought choice also dictates one to work for ones salvation.
those who believe in any religion stick to it out of fear. when discussing religion with a non religious person, their strongest point is that if the non believer continues down that path, they will suffer forever. fear is the bottom line.


I would say fear is the first stage. Then comes the stage of love for the Creator. One toils, works righteousness and desires the countenance of the Lord. On bears tribulations and gives much thanks for blessings in order to earn His good pleasure.
There is a kind of fear in love as well. One does not want the Beloved to turn away or become angry ...

Also, it is said that hope and fear are two sandals of a believer or two wings of a believer. Ie the balance of hope and fear are always with the believer, till he meets his Lord and entered into safety.

Another point to consider is that the destiny of a non-believer is from the perspective of a believer, and not the non-believer. One who does not believe in God or His judgement, does He, or Paradise and Hell or the judgement day bear any reality or consequence for them?

Originally posted by nirvana

Our life, health, prosperity and all the blessings we enjoy in this life – we do not have power on any of this.
this is another disturbing point. everything is in the control of God, so we are really not responsible for our actions.


To not be able to do a thing, and to not want to do a thing is not same. I want to become the richest person on earth but I cannot because I do not have power to do so. However, if God wills, He facilitates it for me, because I wanted to ... so the intention, the desire, the choice for a particular action is mine, however to be able to carry it out comes only through His permission.
That is why deeds are rewarded by their intentions.

Originally posted by nirvana

The One Who demands this from us is not a robber, rather our Creator who intends good for us.
then remove hell and give everybody righteous souls.


Everything has a price. The more valuable a thing the higher is its price. One who desires a pure soul spends from himself in the path that leads him to become one.

This live is a test and tests of life are not easy.


Edited by Nausheen - 07 February 2013 at 11:04pm
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Mahdi The Seeke
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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Posted: 12 February 2013 at 10:54am
how did thhow can you doubt the existence of GOD

Edited by Mahdi The Seeke - 12 February 2013 at 11:48am
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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Posted: 12 February 2013 at 10:59am
pray to God, you will get an answer.

Edited by Mahdi The Seeke - 12 February 2013 at 11:45am
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nirvana
 
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Quote nirvana Replybullet Posted: 12 February 2013 at 12:01pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren




Masha'Allah good answer from sister Nausheen. JazakhAllah Khair!
 
Mr. Nirvana God made us so He can do whatever He wishes right? He is the potter and we are the clay therefore it is His prerogative what He does with his creation.
 
In every country of the world there are laws that it's citizens must follow, if they disobey they are rebelling and would be labelled a criminal.
 
God made us and gave us intrstructions in how to live our daily lives according to His pleasure. We must strive to please Him in every way, and everything apart from obeying Him is disobedience and siding with satan the most rebellious of creatures. He has given us a choice follow His laws or follow satan. Whichever you choose will result in your destiny, so one can choose  to go to heaven or hell. By disobeying His commands you are in fact choosing to go to hell. Why are we given free will?
 
When you surrender to Him you will understand all of these things, you will only understand these things when you have a humble heart and get rid of your arrogance. Total surrender is to be the goal of every soul that is created. Research what it is to be a Muslim.
 
<div style="line-height: 18px; font-size: 16px;">Muhsin Khan
<div style="line-height: 18px; font-size: 16px;"> 
<span id="verse_1100__7_content">I shall turn away from My Ayat (verses of the Quran) those who behave arrogantly on the earth, without a right, and (even) if they see all the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), they will not believe in them. And if they see the way of righteousness (monotheism, piety, and good deeds), they will not adopt it as the Way, but if they see the way of error (polytheism, crimes and evil deeds), they will adopt that way, that is because they have rejected Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and were heedless (to learn a lesson) from them.</span>
<span><span id="verse_1101__7_content">Those who deny Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and the Meeting in the Hereafter (Day of Resurrection,), vain are their deeds. Do they  expect to be rewarded with anything except what they used to do? 7:46-47</span></span>

.
Mr. Nirvana God made us so He can do whatever He wishes right? He is the potter and we are the clay therefore it is His prerogative what He does with his creationthat is simply your belief. your parents brought you into this world. did God ask you if you would abide by His rules before you were conceived?God made us and gave us intrstructions in how to live our daily lives according to His pleasure. We must strive to please Him in every way, and everything apart from obeying Him is disobedience and siding with satan the most rebellious of creatures. He has given us a choice follow His laws or follow satan. Whichever you choose will result in your destiny, so one can choose to go to heaven or hell. By disobeying His commands you are in fact choosing to go to hell. Why are we given free will?

When you surrender to Him you will understand all of these things, you will only understand these things when you have a humble heart and get rid of your arrogance. Total surrender is to be the goal of every soul that is created. Research what it is to be a Muslim.
which God? there are so many and therefore so many 'rules'. you would have to choose one 'God' among the many before deciding which rules to follow.
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