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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: The Ishmael Complex Post Reply Post New Topic
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 19 January 2014 at 1:41pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

  the people were simple folk who were unlettered and did not keep any written records.

Greetings Abu,
Smile

Regarding your statement above...

Still, they would have had spoken records... spoken knowledge, of which they obviously had none or they would have easily accepted what Muhammad was teaching.

Salaam and blessings,
Caringheart
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 20 January 2014 at 3:07am
You are right,that is why Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala reminds us and gives us the correct account of things.
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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 11 February 2014 at 5:12am
Let's put this argument to rest. The following verses from the Qur'an clearly says that it was Ismael who was nearly sacrificed so please take note of verse 112.

Sahih International

And [then] he said, "Indeed, I will go to [where I am ordered by] my Lord; He will guide me.
My Lord, grant me [a child] from among the righteous."
So We gave him good tidings of a forbearing boy.
And when he reached with him [the age of] exertion, he said, "O my son, indeed I have seen in a dream that I [must] sacrifice you, so see what you think." He said, "O my father, do as you are commanded. You will find me, if Allah wills, of the steadfast."
And when they had both submitted and he put him down upon his forehead,
We called to him, "O Abraham,
You have fulfilled the vision." Indeed, We thus reward the doers of good.
Indeed, this was the clear trial.
And We ransomed him with a great sacrifice,
And We left for him [favorable mention] among later generations:
"Peace upon Abraham."
Indeed, We thus reward the doers of good.
Indeed, he was of Our believing servants.
And We gave him good tidings of Isaac, a prophet from among the righteous.
37:99-112

If the intended sacrifice was Prophet Isaac (Alayhi Salaam) then verse 112 doesn't make sense.

Salaam
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Empiricist
 
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Quote Empiricist Replybullet Posted: 10 August 2014 at 1:55pm
How did the old testament become wrong? Why would it be? Is that the only place it is wrong? There is no evidence of it being wrong other places (or there for that matter).

And to just quote the Quran is not enough. You have no other confirmation. This is not enough evidence. There is no evidence the Quran is correct- if it says it is, and you believe it, then that is circular logic. You need some other evidence to confirm it, and the bible has stood for centuries as accurate and there is much to confirm it. I'm afraid the bible account is considered accurate by me until you can find something reliable that refutes it.   
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Empiricist
 
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Quote Empiricist Replybullet Posted: 10 August 2014 at 2:08pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Empiricist

How did Uthman know what the Prophet authorized? He had been dead for many years and had no part in the writing of it, and could not read.



I don't mean to offend but this shows your ignorance.

First of all, the Qur'an was memorised wholly by his companions and they diligently checked each other to see what they were reciting were all the same. This is the miracle that you people deny. The Qur'an was sent to an unlettered Prophet and it was through recitation that it was copied onto book form. Indeed the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) could not read.

Originally posted by Empiricist



Historians looking for evidence of Mohammed existing have not been able to find it from the local history as reported in the Quran.


It makes one wonders where they were looking.

Originally posted by Empiricist


   The Quran Dilemma shows many problems with the Quran. There is no way it can be the word of God or Gabriel or any spirit. It is a collection of the other writings, modified to suit the group of writer's political and personal agendas. (Multiple wives, OK to rape and kill infidels, wives only 12 years old, all the rules to follow, etc.- a major difference from what Jesus taught. Islam simply cannot be anything holy and is by and for man, and not of very good character. Pride is a sin yet it is everywhere in Islam. Honor killings. Killing those who deface a Quran. (this makes it an Idol, does it not? Yet it can be reprinted $1 a dozen. Who cares if it gets burned??? FOOLISH PRIDE!). Deception and lies to further Islam are encouraged. Nobody should trust a Muslim because you never know if they are telling truth. Why should they?



These are just your opinions and you can keep them :)


Originally posted by Empiricist


Islam is simply a fraud. It can be nothing else.


This is exactly what a person without any guidance, knowledge or wisdom would say.

[IMG]smileys/smiley32.gif" align="middle" />


There were several versions of the Quran, over 50, and nobody memorized exactly what Mohammed said, or there would not be 50 versions. How many years after Mohammed died was the Quran written do you think?

You should really go back to the Christian times before Mohammed. This history explains the emergence of many religions which Islam spawned from. And it is sad that the ancient Christian churches in Syria are being destroyed. The evidence is being destroyed.

Also Aramaic was originally used for much of the Quran, not Arabic. When Aramic is used, the meaning of some of the text makes much more sense. The part about the virgins in heaven- those are not Virgins but rather fresh juicy grapes in Aramaic. This was the real meaning. You don't get rewarded for killing others either. There was much revised and distorted that Mohammed did not even utter. It was done for political reasons just as today.   People do not change. Some people want power and money any way they can get it and will sell their soul to get it. There are many hypocrites in any religion.
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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 11 August 2014 at 4:19am
Originally posted by Empiricist

How did the old testament become wrong? Why would it be? Is that the only place it is wrong? There is no evidence of it being wrong other places (or there for that matter).



it didn't necessarily became wrong but the Jewish scribes added and deleted from the text of the scriptures, hence it became a different message than the one God Almighty sent down.

Originally posted by Empiricist



And to just quote the Quran is not enough. You have no other confirmation. This is not enough evidence. There is no evidence the Quran is correct- if it says it is, and you believe it, then that is circular logic. You need some other evidence to confirm it, and the bible has stood for centuries as accurate and there is much to confirm it. I'm afraid the bible account is considered accurate by me until you can find something reliable that refutes it.   


Well as believers we think it is enough because we believe it to be the verbatim Word of God Almighty. Now that may not be a good answer to you but then tough.

Actually the Qur'an corrects the mistakes that are found in the Bible.
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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 11 August 2014 at 4:23am
Originally posted by Empiricist


There were several versions of the Quran, over 50, and nobody memorized exactly what Mohammed said, or there would not be 50 versions. How many years after Mohammed died was the Quran written do you think?

You should really go back to the Christian times before Mohammed. This history explains the emergence of many religions which Islam spawned from. And it is sad that the ancient Christian churches in Syria are being destroyed. The evidence is being destroyed.

Also Aramaic was originally used for much of the Quran, not Arabic. When Aramic is used, the meaning of some of the text makes much more sense. The part about the virgins in heaven- those are not Virgins but rather fresh juicy grapes in Aramaic. This was the real meaning. You don't get rewarded for killing others either. There was much revised and distorted that Mohammed did not even utter. It was done for political reasons just as today.   People do not change. Some people want power and money any way they can get it and will sell their soul to get it. There are many hypocrites in any religion.


What happened was that when it was decided that the Qur'an should be written down in book form, different people from different parts of the Arabian Peninsula decided to write it in their own dialects. When the companions of the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) found out the Caliph at the time Uthman ibn Affan ordered that all the other copies from Baghdad, Yemen etc should be brought to Mecca and burned and only the one authorised version should be circulated to the believers.

This was done fairly soon after the death of the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) because I don't know if you are aware but the Caliph's after the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) Abu Bakr and Umar died within a short space of time and Uthman was the third Caliph.

Edited by Abu Loren - 11 August 2014 at 4:31am
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 11 August 2014 at 4:07pm
Originally posted by Empiricist

There were several versions of the Quran, over 50, and nobody memorized exactly what Mohammed said, or there would not be 50 versions. How many years after Mohammed died was the Quran written do you think?

You should really go back to the Christian times before Mohammed. This history explains the emergence of many religions which Islam spawned from. And it is sad that the ancient Christian churches in Syria are being destroyed. The evidence is being destroyed.

Also Aramaic was originally used for much of the Quran, not Arabic. When Aramic is used, the meaning of some of the text makes much more sense. The part about the virgins in heaven- those are not Virgins but rather fresh juicy grapes in Aramaic. This was the real meaning. You don't get rewarded for killing others either. There was much revised and distorted that Mohammed did not even utter. It was done for political reasons just as today.   People do not change. Some people want power and money any way they can get it and will sell their soul to get it. There are many hypocrites in any religion.


I love it when Christian apologists jump on the latest trends in orientalist attacks on Islam and blindly accept them as fact.  Maybe if you had done some actual "empirical" research, meaning free of any bias (which you obviously have), you would not refer to the work of Christoph Luxenberg, whose claims have largely been refuted by scholars like Angelika Neuwirth and Waled Saleh.  Interested parties can refer to the following review by Neuwirth of Luxenberg's book:

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/luxreview1.html

For Waled Saleh's critique of Luxenberg, you can read "The Quran in Context: Historical and Literary Investigations into the Quranic Milieu", pp. 670-693.

Now, let me comment on the irony of a Christian attacking the Quran, while simultaneously believing in a book known as the Bible, which the last time I checked, has quite a checkered history (at least, that would be the conclusion of any "empirical" analysis).  Since this thread is about the "Ishmael Complex", let us look at that Biblical story as an example of the Bible's less than reputable and trustworthy status.  In the following article, I discussed the contradictions and inconsistencies of the Biblical story of Isaac and Ishmael:

http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/01/ishmael-and-isaac-in-quran-and-bible.html


Furthermore, in subsequent articles, I responded to the arguments of another Christian apologist who attempted to respond to my original article:

http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/02/response-to-christian-about-biblical.html

http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/02/response-to-christian-about-biblical_17.html

http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/02/response-to-christian-about-biblical_19.html

http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/02/response-to-christian-about-biblical_25.html

http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/02/response-to-christian-about-biblical_27.html


http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/03/response-to-christian-about-biblical.html

http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/03/response-to-christian-about-biblical_9.html

http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/03/response-to-christian-about-biblical_15.html

I realize that this is a lot of reading, but that is the point.  It takes serious and time-consuming research to ascertain the facts, not selective research blinded by academic bias.   

Based on serious research, I have come to the following conclusion, to borrow "Empiricist's" words (with slight modifications:

Christianity is simply a fraud. It can be nothing else.
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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