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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: The Ishmael Complex Post Reply Post New Topic
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Abu Loren
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 22 December 2013 at 10:19am
Originally posted by Empiricist

To say that the Quran was not revised is not correct- it had over 50 versions at one time, and the content had many interpretations and contradictions. This is well documented but Muslims are not told this fact because it then discredits the holiness claim.



Thank you. You've just confirmed what it says in one of the Hadiths that people in surrounding areas of Arabia started to produce their own versions of the Qur'an. This is the reason Uthman ordered all the conflicting qur'ans to be burned and to only keep the one authorised by the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi wa Sallam).

Originally posted by Empiricist


If not the holy word of "Allah" then it is just the writings of a group of men (for political control reasons obviously).   Research in the bible continue to validate its content. But it is also written by man, subject to man's bias. The Quran is written from a collection of other heretical religions at the time, all denying the divinity of Jesus.



The favourite topic of all the anti Mulism websites and people jumping on the bandwagon is that the Qur'an is copied from other sources.

Originally posted by Empiricist



Even the evidence for the existence of Muhammad is sparse.



Really? So all the companions of the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) were collectively dreaming at the same time and writing down hi life events?

Originally posted by Empiricist


The words about Ishmael are quite prophetic. His descendants, the Muslims, if true, are certainly at odds with the rest of the world.



This is pure fantasy. A handful of politically motivated people decide make war on the perpetrators who invented this "at odds with the rest of the world" cliche and all of a sudden ALL the Muslims of the world are savages hellbent on killing all the kafir. Laughable.

Actually if you have ever visited a Muslim country you will know that it is one of the most peaceful and safe eenvironments to live under. Places like Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya etc are on your 'breaking news' television screen because the USA and its allies create problems in these areas. Then all of a sudden ALL the Muslims of the world are out to get the Westerners.

It's a sad world we live in.
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Empiricist
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Quote Empiricist Replybullet Posted: 28 December 2013 at 10:04pm
How did Uthman know what the Prophet authorized? He had been dead for many years and had no part in the writing of it, and could not read. Historians looking for evidence of Mohammed existing have not been able to find it from the local history as reported in the Quran. See book "What the Modern Martyr Should Know: Seventy-Two Grapes and Not a Single Virgin: The New Picture of Islam" translated from German. Islam should withstand analysis by independent analysts. The book Rational Conclusions about biblical accuracy is by an Engineer and former atheist, and finds no indication of any significant inaccuracies in the Bible. The Quran Dilemma shows many problems with the Quran. There is no way it can be the word of God or Gabriel or any spirit. It is a collection of the other writings, modified to suit the group of writer's political and personal agendas. (Multiple wives, OK to rape and kill infidels, wives only 12 years old, all the rules to follow, etc.- a major difference from what Jesus taught. Islam simply cannot be anything holy and is by and for man, and not of very good character. Pride is a sin yet it is everywhere in Islam. Honor killings. Killing those who deface a Quran. (this makes it an Idol, does it not? Yet it can be reprinted $1 a dozen. Who cares if it gets burned??? FOOLISH PRIDE!). Deception and lies to further Islam are encouraged. Nobody should trust a Muslim because you never know if they are telling truth. Why should they?

Islam was created based on other groups that also denied the holiness of Jesus, including the Arians.

The truth (or I should say false) of Islam is coming to light. Just a matter of time. Islam is a false ideology for the masses to control them and create a common enemy to keep them united. Yet the Sunnis and Shiites are killing each other- is that peaceful? Why do the Muslims turn to Sharia law in other countries and become belligerent when their population gets large? They just want to make everything Islam and take whatever they can take. They act nice until that time comes. It is all fraud and deception. Deception is synonymous with EVIL and Satan. Maybe it was Satan, not Gabriel? How would anyone know for sure if they were just writing what they thought Muhammad said? And they never put their name to what they wrote either in the Quran. How do you know who wrote what? There were many disagreements before the final version, which was forced on others under threat. At least in the Bible the authors are revealed.
Islam is simply a fraud. It can be nothing else.
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Quote Webber Replybullet Posted: 29 December 2013 at 12:43pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren


Consider this. Would Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam) be more distressed about sacrificing Ishmael (Alayhi Salaam) than Prophet Isaac (Alayhi Salaam)?
If God had asked Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam) to sacrifice Prophet Isaac (Alayhi Salaam0 then it makes no sense as he already has another son. However, just imagine the impact of sacrifcing Prophet Ishmael (Alayhi Salaam0 when he was his only child, and that after having him at old age.
I don't know about you but I think Prophet Ibrahim (Alyhi Salaam) would be more distressed in 'almost' losing Prophet Ishmael (Alayhi Salaam).


I don't think it matters much how many children you have, how would you feel about killing any one of them. I understand what you're saying but don't have any evidence that logic was used.

Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) tells us that Prophet Ishmael (Alayhi Salaam) was an accomplished archer. May be he was very adept at hunting and (as usual) the Jews took that to be an aggressive qaulity. Allahu Alaum!


That could be. Add that to his feeling of rejection from being sent out and you could have an angry fellow willing to prove it.

[quote]Indeed I pray to have patience with Christians on this forum :)[QUOTE]

In the same sense that I've heard it said that the worst Muslim is better than the best Christian, try the vice versa. Christians have not only been taught that they are the only ones going to heaven they actually believe that down to their denomination, or sub denomination.
I'm with you in prayer for patience ;)


I'm a Gentile.
Numb. 6:24-26
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Abu Loren
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 31 December 2013 at 4:42am
Originally posted by Empiricist

How did Uthman know what the Prophet authorized? He had been dead for many years and had no part in the writing of it, and could not read.



I don't mean to offend but this shows your ignorance.

First of all, the Qur'an was memorised wholly by his companions and they diligently checked each other to see what they were reciting were all the same. This is the miracle that you people deny. The Qur'an was sent to an unlettered Prophet and it was through recitation that it was copied onto book form. Indeed the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) could not read.

Originally posted by Empiricist



Historians looking for evidence of Mohammed existing have not been able to find it from the local history as reported in the Quran.


It makes one wonders where they were looking.

Originally posted by Empiricist


   The Quran Dilemma shows many problems with the Quran. There is no way it can be the word of God or Gabriel or any spirit. It is a collection of the other writings, modified to suit the group of writer's political and personal agendas. (Multiple wives, OK to rape and kill infidels, wives only 12 years old, all the rules to follow, etc.- a major difference from what Jesus taught. Islam simply cannot be anything holy and is by and for man, and not of very good character. Pride is a sin yet it is everywhere in Islam. Honor killings. Killing those who deface a Quran. (this makes it an Idol, does it not? Yet it can be reprinted $1 a dozen. Who cares if it gets burned??? FOOLISH PRIDE!). Deception and lies to further Islam are encouraged. Nobody should trust a Muslim because you never know if they are telling truth. Why should they?



These are just your opinions and you can keep them :)


Originally posted by Empiricist


Islam is simply a fraud. It can be nothing else.


This is exactly what a person without any guidance, knowledge or wisdom would say.

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Abu Loren
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 31 December 2013 at 4:51am
Originally posted by Webber



That could be. Add that to his feeling of rejection from being sent out and you could have an angry fellow willing to prove it.



You've fallen into the trap of those who believe that Ishmael and his mother were banished by Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam). This is simply not true. They were taken there first as a test for Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam) and then later as a settlement for Ishmael and his descendants. They built the first house of worship which is the ka'ba.

Like the city of Jerusalem and it's surroundings the city of Mecca and it's surroundings are blessed by Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala.

I submit that there there are Muslim haters who deny the holiness of Jerusalem just there are Christian and Jewish haters who deny the holiness of Mecca.
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 18 January 2014 at 12:47pm
I have written an article on my blog, dealing with the story of Ishmael and Isaac (pbut).  In it, I show that the Biblical story is self-contradictory and cannot be reasonably accepted as the truth. 

http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/01/ishmael-and-isaac-in-quran-and-bible.html
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 18 January 2014 at 9:45pm
I am curious, doesn't anyone ever ask themselves...
if the story of Ishmael is correct as muslims believe it, then why is there no record prior to the coming of Muhammad, of Ishmael and Abraham in the lands of Arabia?
Certainly no one claimed to know of this history before Muhammad came.
No one spoke of an Ishmael connection, or an Abraham connection, and certainly someone before Muhammad would have known something about the building of the Ka'abba and whether or not it was connected with the two.

Salaam,
Caringheart
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
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Abu Loren
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 19 January 2014 at 5:09am
Originally posted by Caringheart

I am curious, doesn't anyone ever ask themselves... if the story of Ishmael is correct as muslims believe it, then why is there no record prior to the coming of Muhammad, of Ishmael and Abraham in the lands of Arabia?Certainly no one claimed to know of this history before Muhammad came.No one spoke of an Ishmael connection, or an Abraham connection, and certainly someone before Muhammad would have known something about the building of the Ka'abba and whether or not it was connected with the two.Salaam,Caringheart


Curiosity killed the cat!:P

The story of Ishmael is correct because we have it from God and not from a human being, therefore it is without errors.

First of all when Ishmael and his mother Hajjer settled in the valley of Mecca there was nobody living there at the time but eventually people slowly began to settle there and these people were nomads or Bedouin. With this in mind you can imagine that the people were simple folk who were unlettered and did not keep any written records.

This and all the information we have about Prophets Ibrahim and Ishmael (Salatul Asalaam to them) is from the Prophet Mohammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) who received these information from Archangel Jibreel (Alayhi Salaam). I know you will find all this hard to believe because......well you are an unbeliever. No pun intended.
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