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Interfaith Dialogue
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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Topic: The Ishmael Complex
    Posted: 01 February 2013 at 5:38am

Alhamdulilahi Rabbil Alamin Ar Rahman ir Rahim

As’alaamu Alaikkum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu

 

Prophet Ishmael (Alayhi Salaam) was the first born son of the beloved Prophet of God Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam). Being the first born, Ishmael (Alyhi Salaam) was especially loved by his father as Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam) was getting on years.  Prophet Ibrahim made a supplication to God Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala to bless his son and his progeny.

Genesis 17:18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!

God Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala heard his pleas and replied :-

Genesis 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

In the Holy Qur’an we are told by God Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala that He ordered Prophets Ibrahim and Ishmael (peace and blessings of Allah be upon them both) to buid the Kaba’a in Mecca. This is where Hagar and Ishmael were ordered to be settled. We can deduce from this blessing that God Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala would send Prophets and Messengers to the descendants of Ishmael (Alayhi Salaam). We can deduce from the Holy Qur’an that Prophets Hud, Salih, Shua’ib etc (Peace and blessings of Allah be upon them) were the direct descendants of Prophet Ishmael (Alayhi Salaam). The final Messenger and Prophet of this line being Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam).

God Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala does not lie. Christians would like to demonise Ishmael and his mother Hagar. They say that because Hagar was the handmaid of Sarah, Prophet Ishmael was born into bondage and has lost his claim to be the son of Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam). They fail to realize or even accept the fact that both sons of Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam) Prophet Ishmael and Prophet Isaac (peace and blessings of Allah be upon them both) were blessed by God Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala.

This deep rooted hatred for the first born son of Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam) is unfounded. Nowhere in the Bible does it state that God Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala would only bless Prophet Isaac (Alayhi Slaam) and his progeny.

The Jew and the Arab are indeed brothers.

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Empiricist
 
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Quote Empiricist Replybullet Posted: 02 February 2013 at 5:17am
Also note from Genesis 16-
Then the angel of the Lord told her, “Go back to your mistress and submit to her.” 10 The angel added, “I will increase your descendants so much that they will be too numerous to count.”S)'>

11 The angel of the LordT)'> also said to her:

“You are now pregnant
    and you will give birth to a son.U)'>
You shall name himV)'> Ishmael,a]'>[a]W)'>
    for the Lord has heard of your misery.X)'>
12 He will be a wild donkeyY)'> of a man;
    his hand will be against everyone
    and everyone’s hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
    towardb]'>[b] all his brothers.Z)'>”

This has carried forward to today if his descendants are the Muslims and the brothers are the Jews and Christians.  However that also gives credibility to the prophesy of Jesus in the old testament.  There is no prophesy of Muhammed.  That also means all the words of Jesus should be heeded and cannot be superceded by whatever Muhammed said.  This is not how truth is delivered- by multiple revisions.  Even Muhammed revised what he said- early verses are contradicted by later verses.  Jesus warned about false prophets.  Could Muhammed be one?
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Quote Webber Replybullet Posted: 02 February 2013 at 8:16am
Certainly Ishmael was blessed and made a great nation. I haven't noticed any deep rooted hatred for him from Christians though.
What I have seen with Christians, and moreso with Jews is they don't like Muslims making Ishmael the "almost" sacrifice. There isn't enough Quranic evidence to rewrite history, and in the overall it makes no difference to any of us, so it should just be let go.
This is the point of contention though which leads people to read where it says Ishmael was a wild donkey of a man. Muslims panick, swear it must be corrupt, Christians and Jews chuckle about it, Muslims go away mad thinking they all hate Ishmael. Too bad a book wasn't written to follow Ishmael. It would have contained some serious wisdom, or something more to argue about, lol.
 
Was "wild donkey" an expression for temper tantrums? Not uncommon with first borns. Not usually a life long thing either, and does not mean he raised a nation of wild donkeys. Jews and christian would play on that though.
 
Haggar was obviously blessed and given the help she needed to raise him until they were established.
 
Next time you run into a Christian who wants to argue Ishmael as an outcast, you can show him where it says God blessed Ishmael. Shouldn't much matter their response, just ask them if God was wrong to bless him. Then tell them, (with a smile) they should read more.
I'm a Gentile.
Numb. 6:24-26
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 02 February 2013 at 7:13pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Genesis 17:18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!

God Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala heard his pleas and replied :-

Genesis 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

Christians would like to demonise Ishmael and his mother Hagar. They say that because Hagar was the handmaid of Sarah, Prophet Ishmael was born into bondage and has lost his claim to be the son of Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam). They fail to realize or even accept the fact that both sons of Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam) Prophet Ishmael and Prophet Isaac (peace and blessings of Allah be upon them both) were blessed by God Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala.

This deep rooted hatred for the first born son of Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam) is unfounded. Nowhere in the Bible does it state that God Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala would only bless Prophet Isaac (Alayhi Slaam) and his progeny.

The Jew and the Arab are indeed brothers.



"The Jew and the Arab are indeed brothers."

I agree.
and I refute what you say about 'Christians' demonizing Hagar and Ishmael.
Everything written of Ishmael was written in the old testament(before Jesus and His followers ever came along) and indeed the scriptures say that God would 'multiply the seed' of Ishmael.

13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed. (Genesis 16)

21 And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt. (Genesis 21)


Ishmael, too, has his part to play.




Edited by Caringheart - 02 February 2013 at 7:14pm
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 03 February 2013 at 3:18am
Originally posted by Empiricist

Also note from Genesis 16-
Then the angel of the Lord told her, “Go back to your mistress and submit to her.” 10 The angel added, “I will increase your descendants so much that they will be too numerous to count.”S)'>

11 The angel of the LordT)'> also said to her:

“You are now pregnant
    and you will give birth to a son.U)'>
You shall name himV)'> Ishmael,a]'>[a]W)'>
    for the Lord has heard of your misery.X)'>
12 He will be a wild donkeyY)'> of a man;
    his hand will be against everyone
    and everyone’s hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
    towardb]'>[b] all his brothers.Z)'>”

This has carried forward to today if his descendants are the Muslims and the brothers are the Jews and Christians.  However that also gives credibility to the prophesy of Jesus in the old testament.  There is no prophesy of Muhammed.  That also means all the words of Jesus should be heeded and cannot be superceded by whatever Muhammed said.  This is not how truth is delivered- by multiple revisions.  Even Muhammed revised what he said- early verses are contradicted by later verses.  Jesus warned about false prophets.  Could Muhammed be one?
 

Sahih International

 

And mention in the Book, Ishmael. Indeed, he was true to his promise, and he was a messenger and a prophet. 9:54                                                And [mention] Ishmael and Idrees and Dhul-Kifl; all were of the patient. 21:85                                                                                                     And remember Ishmael, Elisha and Dhul-Kifl, and all are among the outstanding. 38:48

This conflicts with your version in the bible. As for the rest of your comment, it's just pure fantasy.

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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 03 February 2013 at 3:28am
Originally posted by Webber

What I have seen with Christians, and moreso with Jews is they don't like Muslims making Ishmael the "almost" sacrifice. There isn't enough Quranic evidence to rewrite history, and in the overall it makes no difference to any of us, so it should just be let go.
 
Consider this. Would Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam) be more distressed about sacrificing Ishmael (Alayhi Salaam) than Prophet Isaac (Alayhi Salaam)?
If God had asked Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam) to sacrifice Prophet Isaac (Alayhi Salaam0 then it makes no sense as he already has another son. However, just imagine the impact of sacrifcing Prophet Ishmael (Alayhi Salaam0 when he was his only child, and that after having him at old age.
I don't know about you but I think Prophet Ibrahim (Alyhi Salaam) would be more distressed in 'almost' losing Prophet Ishmael (Alayhi Salaam).
 
 
This is the point of contention though which leads people to read where it says Ishmael was a wild donkey of a man. Muslims panick, swear it must be corrupt, Christians and Jews chuckle about it, Muslims go away mad thinking they all hate Ishmael. Too bad a book wasn't written to follow Ishmael. It would have contained some serious wisdom, or something more to argue about, lol.
 
Was "wild donkey" an expression for temper tantrums? Not uncommon with first borns. Not usually a life long thing either, and does not mean he raised a nation of wild donkeys. Jews and christian would play on that though.
 
 
Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) tells us that Prophet Ishmael (Alayhi Salaam) was an accomplished archer. May be he was very adept at hunting and (as usual) the Jews took that to be an aggressive qaulity. Allahu Alaum!
 
 
Haggar was obviously blessed and given the help she needed to raise him until they were established.
 
Next time you run into a Christian who wants to argue Ishmael as an outcast, you can show him where it says God blessed Ishmael. Shouldn't much matter their response, just ask them if God was wrong to bless him. Then tell them, (with a smile) they should read more.
 
Indeed I pray to have patience with Christians on this forum :)
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Quote Empiricist Replybullet Posted: 06 February 2013 at 9:05pm

Just calling something pure fantasy just avoids the issue. 

The other comments do not make sense to me. 
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Quote Empiricist Replybullet Posted: 21 December 2013 at 5:24am
The Sahih bible version is biased towards Islam and is not credible anywhere else. "My" version is one of many accepted versions of the bible, written well before the Quran and creation of Islam.

If Muslims cannot or will not question or attempt to verify their literature, and always say everything else is wrong, then they have no credibility. They are simply exercising "groupthink". To say that the Quran was not revised is not correct- it had over 50 versions at one time, and the content had many interpretations and contradictions. This is well documented but Muslims are not told this fact because it then discredits the holiness claim. If not the holy word of "Allah" then it is just the writings of a group of men (for political control reasons obviously).   Research in the bible continue to validate its content. But it is also written by man, subject to man's bias. The Quran is written from a collection of other heretical religions at the time, all denying the divinity of Jesus.

Even the evidence for the existence of Muhammad is sparse.

The words about Ishmael are quite prophetic. His descendants, the Muslims, if true, are certainly at odds with the rest of the world.

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