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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
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Mahdi The Seeke
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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Posted: 06 March 2013 at 1:24pm
Originally posted by Experiential

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">You forget the Injil was written in Greek. “Begotten” is an English word from the Greek <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>“monogenēs”, which means –


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </o:p>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">single of its kind, only


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">a) used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">b) used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God.

so, mistranslation. tell your Bible translators to do a better job next time.
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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 07 March 2013 at 1:56am
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Experiential

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">You forget the Injil was written in Greek. “Begotten” is an English word from the Greek <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>“monogenēs”, which means –


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </o:p>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">single of its kind, only


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">a) used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">b) used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God.

so, mistranslation. tell your Bible translators to do a better job next time.
No. you need to do a better job of understanding the Bible.
Do you read Arabic ?

Edited by Experiential - 07 March 2013 at 1:57am
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Mahdi The Seeke
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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Posted: 08 March 2013 at 1:18am
Originally posted by Experiential

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Experiential

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">You forget the Injil was written in Greek. “Begotten” is an English word from the Greek <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>“monogenēs”, which means –

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </o:p>

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">single of its kind, only

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">a) used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">b) used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God.

so, mistranslation. tell your Bible translators to do a better job next time.

No. you need to do a better job of understanding the Bible.
Do you read Arabic ?
unless monogenes in greek =begotten in english, it is a mistranslation.

besides, David is also the 'begotten' son of God.
Psalm 2:7
King James Version (KJV)
7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

monogenes(μονογενὴς)The expression itself is a combination of two words, monos (meaning only) and genes ("kind" or "type." )the phrase then means "unique" or "one of a kind."

therefore, monogenes does not mean begotten. 'unique son' or 'one and only son' would be accurate in john 3:16


the hebrew word used in psalm 2:7 is yalad (ילד) which actually means begotten.

Edited by Mahdi The Seeke - 08 March 2013 at 2:44am
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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 10 March 2013 at 10:29pm

Mahdi Said

unless monogenes in greek =begotten in english, it is a mistranslation.

My Reply

This is not mistranslation. Its just that English and Greek are not comparable languages.

 

Mahdi Said

besides, David is also the 'begotten' son of God.

Psalm 2:7 . King James Version (KJV)

 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

My Reply

Its obviously not about David. Nor any other ancient Jewish King for that matter. Jesus fulfills this passage in ways David, Solomon, Jehoshaphat, Hezekiah, and particularly Ahab, never came close to fulfilling.

Which ancient Jewish King received the entire world as his inheritance?

 

David never had the nations as his inheritance or the ends of the earth as his possession. (verse 8)

Also Jesus (and the Jews of his day) as documented in the Ijil disagree with you. In Mathew 22.44 answered similar questions for the Jews as you are asking. Jesus quoted Psalm 110.

 

While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, Saying, What think you of Christ? Whose son is he? They say to him, The son of David. He said to them, How then does David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit you on my right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool?

If David then calls him Lord, how is he his son?

And no man was able to answer him a word, neither dared any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

Mathew 22.44

 

 

Mahdi Said

Monogenes (μονογενς) The expression itself is a combination of two words, monos (meaning only) and genes ("kind" or "type." ) the phrase then means "unique" or "one of a kind."

therefore, monogenes does not mean begotten. 'unique son' or 'one and only son' would be accurate in john 3:16

My Reply

You are defeating your own argument. You are confirming what Ive said all along about the Greek word monogenes (meaning only) and genes ("kind" or "type”). Christ Jesus The Messiah was The ‘Only’ and ‘Type.’

However you want to confuse it, it still amounts to the same thing.

 

And yes the word yalad (ילד) means begotten.  But again looking at Psalm 2 and the history of Israel, which ancient Jewish King received the entire world as his inheritance or possession apart from Christ Jesus the Messiah?

 

If your point is to prove that Christ Jesus was not unique or of ‘One of a kind’ how do you explain Psalm 110 which as it reads makes it clear that there is One that is unique?

Psalm 110 supports and provides context to Psalm 2.

 

Psalm 110 makes it clear The Messiah would be a priest like Melchizedek (not from Levi whom the Jewish priests descended from). He would be a priest for all nations, not just Israel. He would be a king-priest, combining two offices. His reign would be without beginning and without end.

 

Isaiah 52 and 53 also provide support and context to Psalm 2 in One which is unique, One of a kind. More than just a human being or ‘son’ of God.

You haven’t refuted my quoting of Isaiah except to say it is ‘past tense’ – which I have adequately responded to.

 

 

 

 

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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Posted: 26 March 2013 at 2:58am
Psalm 2:Why do the nations conspire [a] 1 and the peoples plot in vain?
The kings of the earth rise up 2 and the rulers band together against the LORD and against his anointed, saying,
“Let us break their chains 3 and throw off their shackles.” The One enthroned in heaven
laughs; 4 the Lord scoffs at them.
He rebukes them in his anger 5 and terrifies them in his wrath, saying,
“I have installed my king 6 on Zion, my holy mountain.” He said to me, “You are my
son; today I have become your father.
Ask me, 8 and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession.
You will break them with a
rod of iron; 9 you will dash them to pieces like pottery.” Therefore, you kings, be wise; 10 be warned, you rulers of the earth.
Serve the LORD with fear 11 and celebrate his rule with trembling.
Kiss his son, or he will be
angry 12 and your way will lead to your destruction,
for his wrath can flare up in a
moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

Obviously, this passageis about David at a time nations were plotting against him, so he told them how he was the son of God and had been assured victory over all nations by God if he asked therefore his enemies are better off as his allies or face the wrath of God.
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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Posted: 26 March 2013 at 3:32am
PSALMS, CHAPTER 110 A psalm of David. The LORD says to my lord: “Sit at my right hand, while I make your enemies your footstool.” The scepter of your might: the LORD extends your strong scepter from Zion. Have dominion over your enemies! Yours is princely power from the day of your birth. In holy splendor before the daystar, like dew I begot you. The LORD has sworn and will not waver: “You are a priest forever in the manner of Melchizedek.” At your right hand is the Lord, who crushes kings on the day of his wrath, Who judges nations, heaps up corpses, crushes heads across the wide earth, Who drinks from the brook by the wayside and thus holds high his head. * [Psalm 110> A royal Psalm in which a court singer recites three oracles in which God assures the king that his enemies are conquered (Ps 110:1–2), makes the king “son” in traditional adoption language (Ps 110:3), gives priestly status to the king and promises to be with him in future military ventures (Ps 110:4–7).

Psalm 110 is about David.

Edited by Mahdi The Seeke - 26 March 2013 at 3:33am
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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Posted: 26 March 2013 at 3:58am
About Isaiah 52 and 53, whatever is in past tense cannot be taken as prophecy.
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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 06 April 2013 at 8:08pm
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Psalm 2:Why do the nations conspire [a] 1 and the peoples plot in vain?
The kings of the earth rise up 2 and the rulers band together against the LORD and against his anointed, saying,
“Let us break their chains 3 and throw off their shackles.” The One enthroned in heaven
laughs; 4 the Lord scoffs at them.
He rebukes them in his anger 5 and terrifies them in his wrath, saying,
“I have installed my king 6 on Zion, my holy mountain.” He said to me, “You are my
son; today I have become your father.
Ask me, 8 and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession.
You will break them with a
rod of iron; 9 you will dash them to pieces like pottery.” Therefore, you kings, be wise; 10 be warned, you rulers of the earth.
Serve the LORD with fear 11 and celebrate his rule with trembling.
Kiss his son, or he will be
angry 12 and your way will lead to your destruction,
for his wrath can flare up in a
moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

Obviously, this passageis about David at a time nations were plotting against him, so he told them how he was the son of God and had been assured victory over all nations by God if he asked therefore his enemies are better off as his allies or face the wrath of God.

David never had the nations as his inheritance or the ends of the earth as his possession. (verse 8).

Its obviously not about David. Jesus fulfills this passage in ways David never came close to fulfilling.

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