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Message Icon Topic: BIBLE:NOBODY CAN DIE FOR ANOTHER'S SINS Post Reply Post New Topic
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Mahdi The Seeke
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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Posted: 06 March 2013 at 11:11am
Originally posted by Experiential

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; <I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </SPAN><?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Isaiah <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>53:5

past tense
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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Posted: 06 March 2013 at 12:39pm
Originally posted by Experiential

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Ezekiel Chapter 18 was what you quoted. It is about individuals being accountable for their own sin. Nothing to do with the atonement of Christ Jesus.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </o:p>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">In regards to what is atonement and why it is necessary? Through the sin of Adam and Eve, Satan has “legal” right over the human race. (Genesis Chapter 3).


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Of course God as an all powerful God could simply over rule any rights that Satan has but because he is all righteous God will remain righteous even to Satan.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </o:p>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">All the old pagan and Jewish blood sacrifices (Book of Leviticus) were just a picture or image of the real thing that was to come through the promised Christ Jesus The Messiah.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </o:p>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">God offered payment of ransom to Satan through coming in human form and shedding his own blood to pay the ransom. (Acts 26.18)


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">His blood was payment to Satans legitimate right but also the redemption and remission of sin. (Leviticus 17.11)


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </o:p>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">However there was more to atonement than just payment for sin. It’s also about being made whole. (Malachi 2:15).


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">What Christ Jesus The Messiah did is allow a blood to blood relationship between God and us. This blood to blood or flesh to flesh relationship permeates to the level of our DNA. That’s why Jesus did healing miracles, so as to demonstrate this resurrecting power.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">And because of this we have the assurance of resurrection at death but also wholeness and power in this life. (John 10.10)


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </o:p>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">God is now not separated from humanity but has become part of us and we can become part of him.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </o:p>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">We are not just redeemed in the spirit but also in an earthy, organic manner as well. Atonement and redemption is of the spirit but also of the flesh, our bodies, mind, sexuality etc.



Ezekiel Chapter 18 was what you quoted. It is about individuals being accountable for their own sin.

exactly. so no need for Jesus. stop trying to stick him with the bill of your transgressions.
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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Posted: 06 March 2013 at 12:46pm
Originally posted by Experiential

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Ezekiel Chapter 18 was what you quoted. It is about individuals being accountable for their own sin. Nothing to do with the atonement of Christ Jesus.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </o:p>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">In regards to what is atonement and why it is necessary? Through the sin of Adam and Eve, Satan has “legal” right over the human race. (Genesis Chapter 3).


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Of course God as an all powerful God could simply over rule any rights that Satan has but because he is all righteous God will remain righteous even to Satan.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </o:p>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">All the old pagan and Jewish blood sacrifices (Book of Leviticus) were just a picture or image of the real thing that was to come through the promised Christ Jesus The Messiah.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </o:p>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">God offered payment of ransom to Satan through coming in human form and shedding his own blood to pay the ransom. (Acts 26.18)


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">His blood was payment to Satans legitimate right but also the redemption and remission of sin. (Leviticus 17.11)


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </o:p>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">However there was more to atonement than just payment for sin. It’s also about being made whole. (Malachi 2:15).


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">What Christ Jesus The Messiah did is allow a blood to blood relationship between God and us. This blood to blood or flesh to flesh relationship permeates to the level of our DNA. That’s why Jesus did healing miracles, so as to demonstrate this resurrecting power.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">And because of this we have the assurance of resurrection at death but also wholeness and power in this life. (John 10.10)


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </o:p>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">God is now not separated from humanity but has become part of us and we can become part of him.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </o:p>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">We are not just redeemed in the spirit but also in an earthy, organic manner as well. Atonement and redemption is of the spirit but also of the flesh, our bodies, mind, sexuality etc.

you had me at His blood was payment to Satans legitimate right but also the redemption and remission of sin. payment to satan? are you kidding me? C'mon now, S.E.R.I.O.U.S.L.Y? i thought satan's payment was eternity in hell.

Edited by Mahdi The Seeke - 06 March 2013 at 1:06pm
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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 10 March 2013 at 10:33pm

Mahdi Said

Past tense (Isaiah 53 )

My Reply

Yes. This is interesting. Firstly, these conditions in Isaiah 52 and 53 were not fulfilled in any Jewish figure before Isaiah wrote the verse. So who is it about?

 

Secondly notice the vision actually starts in the future tense in 52:13 and then moves again in the future tense in 52.10-12 and then past tense again in 53 and future tense again at the end of 53.

 

This moving of tenses is referred to as “prophetic perfect” and is a well-known feature in the prophetic books of the Tanach (Old Testament).  The reason for using the “prophetic perfect” can be understood in that a prophet can have a vision that is so real that he describes it as he sees it with his own eyes as if it has already happened, using the past tense instead of the future.

 

The prophets often move between the past and the future tenses while describing the same event. See, for example, Jeremiah 4.22 -26 (describing the devastation in the past tense) and Jeremiah 4:27-28 (using the future tense).

 

Isaiah was a prophet, and would have been understood at the time to be describing future events despite his use of the perfect tense. For example, Micaiah the prophet spoke in the past tense, in 1 Kings 22:17 about the death of Ahab, which Ahab recognized it as a prediction of the future. As I said, this was common prophetic style.

 

This is indicative of the timeless quality of the promises. It is eternal. Isaiah is recording it as both a past agreement and a future fulfillment. Prophecy can refer to the past, present or future. A Biblical prophet may speak in the past tense, but the pronouncement can apply also to the future.

 

Other examples for this  can also be found.  The Bible says that we have been saved (Ephesians 2:8), that we are being saved (1 Corinthians 1:18), and that we will be saved (1 Corinthians 3:15). Even so, there is a sense in which we have been healed, are being healed, and one day will be healed.

 

God sees time as one piece ("I am ... the beginning and the end"), while we humans see it as yesterday, today, and tomorrow. God’s ultimate healing is called “resurrection,” and it is a glorious promise to every one.

 
 
Mahdi Said

You had me at His blood was payment to Satans legitimate right but also the redemption and remission of sin. payment to satan? are you kidding me? C'mon now, S.E.R.I.O.U.S.L.Y? i thought satan's payment was eternity in hell.

My Reply

Yes you are correct Satans payment is eternity in hell. But that is not Gods will for humanity. Why do you think the world is as evil as it is? Obviously Satan has influence and power ? If you read Genesis and the outcome of Adam and Eve coming under Satans influence then its obvious.

 

Ephesians  6:12 makes it clear that Satan rules the earth.

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 

 

And Acts 26.18 also mentions the power of Satan -

to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God,

 

 

Mahdi Said

Ezekiel Chapter 18 was what you quoted. It is about individuals being accountable for their own sin.

exactly. so no need for Jesus. stop trying to stick him with the bill of your transgressions.

My Reply

Once again you are taking one verse out of context from the whole Bible. Everyone will be accountable for their own sin on the Day of Judgment. But if you read the whole Bible rather tan just taking one verse in isolation and out of context you will see that God has provided  a way out through The Messiah Christ Jesus. Read the whole Bible. This is a bad habit of yours.

 

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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 26 March 2013 at 3:26pm
Originally posted by Experiential






<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">Honeto Said<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><O:P></O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">You think everything is meaningless with this blah blah. Animal sacrifice is not to pay for one's sins, it is to remember the sacrifice Abraham offered when he was tested for his faith.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">My Reply<O:P></O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">You are wrong. The blah blah you are referring to is based on the revelation made known to the Holy Prophet Moses. If you read the Tenakh (Old Testament) you will see.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">Leviticus 17:11. <I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </SPAN><O:P></O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">This is a revelation far older than that of your non Jewish prophet Mohammad who came along 1900 years later. You are simply using your Muslim interpretation on a Muslim myth regarding animal sacrifice. The truth revealed by God is far older and is continuous throughout the prophets fulfilled with Jesus Christ The Messiah. <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Mohammad was nothing more an outsider.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P></O:P> 


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">Honeto Said<O:P></O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">How can someone be Lord or God, when he himself has a God and a Lord. Jesus said "my God and your God" in the same Bible.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">"Become one with God" you said. No one can ever be God or part of God, nor become God. God is God, we and all, everyone other than him including Jesus, Moses, David, Adam and all are only his creations, his servants.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">My Reply<O:P></O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">What are human beings? Just lumps of meat? We are divine. <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>You also have God within you and can become one with Him.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">The Jews of Jesus day also criticized him for claiming to be God and man.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">If you read<I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"> John 10:34<I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"> –<O:P></O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'?<O:P></O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Jesus is quoting the Prophet King David from Psalm82.6


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">"I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </SPAN><O:P></O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">Honeto Said<O:P></O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">We can please God by good acts he told us to do, but we can never become God if that's what you mean. If you mean by doing good as told by God, we become righteous and closer to God, then there is nothing to argue, we believe that in Islam. <B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><O:P></O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">My Reply<O:P></O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Good religious deeds, words or behavior will never be enough for a Holy God. Do you think you can do it without being in a faith relationship with The One Most Holy God? Because you can’t. Your ablutions and good religious deeds can never be enough to tip the scales.



Sorry I was away for a while to answer your post, but here I am.
Animal sacrifice according to the Final Testament of God, the Quran does not pay for sins. And I believe that is the final word for me. We live in time that is under the jurisdiction of the Quran, not Gospel, not Torah. And apart from that their (Torah and Gospel's)authenticity and reliability as an unaltered word of God is questionable. Even for those who want to take things comparatively the Quran's account still prevails.
"It is neither their flesh nor their blood that reaches Allah; it is your piety that reaches Him." (Qur'an 22:37)"

Don't forget that in the Gospel Jesus is quoted to have said that if your hand commits a sin, cut it off. It will be better for you so your whole body wouldn't have to be thrown into the fire. He could have said what you say, to shed the blood of an animal for your sins, but he did not.


Hasan

Edited by honeto - 26 March 2013 at 3:29pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Posted: 27 March 2013 at 1:17am
isaiah 52 and 53 are about the nation of Israel.
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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Posted: 27 March 2013 at 1:19am
Yes you are correct Satans
payment is eternity in hell.
then stop saying stuff that does not make sense. Like
Ephesians 6:12 makes it clear that Satan rules the earth.

Now satan, not God, rules the world. Hmmmm. I would immediately discard any book that said that, i don't know about you.

Edited by Mahdi The Seeke - 27 March 2013 at 1:24am
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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 06 April 2013 at 7:59pm

Honeto Said

Animal sacrifice according to the Final Testament of God,  the Quran does not pay for sins. And I believe that is the final word for me.

 We live in time that is under the jurisdiction of the Quran, not Gospel, not Torah. And apart from that their (Torah and Gospel's)authenticity and reliability as an unaltered word of God is questionable.

My Reply

There is only one Final testament and that is what Christ Jesus the Messiah accomplished on the cross.

You say the Torah and Injils authenticity and reliability as an unaltered word of God is questionable. Ive argued this one many times and no Muslim I have discussed this with has been able to prove this is the case. I have never received an adequate rebuttal to my proof that the Bible is reliable.

 

What is your jurisdiction of the Quaran based on ? Ive never discussed with a Muslim who has been able to answer the lack of authenticity and reliability regarding the Quran in the context of its scientific absurdities, contradictions, repetitions and the fact that most Muslims cant even read Arabic to be able to read the “word of God’.

Problems found with the earliest Quaran found in Sanaa Yemen in the 1970s is evidence that the Quaran is a man made document.

 

 

Honeto Said

Even for those who want to take things comparatively the Quran's account still prevails.

"It is neither their flesh nor their blood that reaches Allah; it is your piety that reaches Him." (Qur'an 22:37)"

My Reply

Quoting the Quran means nothing to me. It is a later message that does not conform to the Torah and Injil which are more ancient and credible to its roots. The Quran is nothing but an arrogant and ignorant upstart not even related to the ancient family of prophesy. Your piety can never be good enough to meet Gods standards.

 

 

Honeto Said

Don't forget that in the Gospel Jesus is quoted to have said that if your hand commits a sin, cut it off. It will be better for you so your whole body wouldn't have to be thrown into the fire. He could have said what you say, to shed the blood of an animal for your sins, but he did not.

My Reply

The Old Testament and Injil are clear. What are necessary are blood sacrifice and after that a heart that is soft and open to God. Behavior in keeping with this is obviously necessary as the verse about the hand illustrates. But it is the blood sacrifice that continues to atone for sin in an ongoing way. And Jesus did say blood sacrifice is the way when he  raised the cup of wine at his last Passover meal and said "this is my blood for you ". Your piety will never be enough.



Edited by Experiential - 10 April 2013 at 1:06am
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