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Experiential
 
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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 27 February 2013 at 3:02pm
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Salaam_Erin

Ezekiel and the Psalm cited were talking about sin with regard to crime and punishment, not the issue of blood atonement.  Besides, Muslims believe someone else died in Jesus' place.  Even though they say nobody else can die in another's place. 

what is bllood atonement? and is it not related to sin, crime and punishment?
Blood atonement is essentially about being made clean and whole. Yes it is related to sin, crime and punishment but not in relation to the verse from Ezekiel at the beginning of this thread that you quoted out of context. (which you have a bad habit of doing)

Edited by Experiential - 27 February 2013 at 8:53pm
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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Posted: 28 February 2013 at 10:16am
Originally posted by Experiential

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Salaam_Erin

Ezekiel and the Psalm cited were talking about sin with regard to crime and punishment, not the issue of blood atonement.  Besides, Muslims believe someone else died in Jesus' place.  Even though they say nobody else can die in another's place.  what is bllood atonement? and is it not related to sin, crime and punishment?

Blood atonement is essentially about being made clean and whole. Yes it is related to sin, crime and punishment but not in relation to the verse from Ezekiel at the beginning of this thread that you quoted out of context. (which you have a bad habit of doing)
what is the context of the verses i quoted. tell me more about blood atonement as you understand it.
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Quote Webber Replybullet Posted: 01 March 2013 at 8:34am
Hi Mahdi,
So I'm reading this thread thinking the chapter is quite clear. It says what it says and now you and I both know that we cannot save our father, nor our son from "death" if they choose the wrong path, and we won't cause them any grief if we stray. Was trying to figure out what your point was. The real point of the chapter is in the quote below.
 
30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”
This is the verse the chapter is leading up to. Of course "die", and "live" mean die and go to hell, or die and go to heaven.
 
There's no mention of atonement, no mention of sacrifice, the key word is repent. You repent, turn from your sins, get yourself a new heart, and a new spirit. <-----now that's interesting...
 
I'm thinking the title of this thread was supposed to be "No Jesus can die for another man's sins, but then you use the Israelites as an example. It's like saying no car can go faster than 15 kph because a horse and buggy couldn't, 100s of yrs ago...(for starters)
 
I enjoy your posts and ability to use the art of confusion to lead people on. It becomes quite informative, in an off topic way, but bring out more topics that could be discussed, other than the same ole same ole.
 
Just to clairify...are you talking the Israelites, or about Jesus? 
If so, a "Jesus" verse is required.
 
Found this yet?
For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations.
Now what? 
 
On the subject of sacrifice and atonement, I have a Muslim buddy who sends money home to buy a goat, or two for some traditional ritual thing that somehow relates back to his personal sacrifice and atonement. Maybe someone here has more details.
 
 
 
 
 
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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 02 March 2013 at 3:15pm

Ezekiel Chapter 18 was what you quoted. It is about individuals being accountable for their own sin. Nothing to do with the atonement of Christ Jesus.

 

In regards to what is atonement and why it is necessary? Through the sin of Adam and Eve, Satan has “legal” right over the human race. (Genesis Chapter 3).

Of course God as an all powerful God could simply over rule any rights that Satan has but because he is all righteous God will remain righteous even to Satan.

 

All the old pagan and Jewish blood sacrifices (Book of Leviticus) were just a picture or image of the real thing that was to come through the promised Christ Jesus The Messiah.

 

God offered payment of ransom to Satan through coming in human form and shedding his own blood to pay the ransom. (Acts 26.18)

His blood was payment to Satans legitimate right but also the redemption and remission of sin. (Leviticus 17.11)

 

However there was more to atonement than just payment for sin. It’s also about being made whole. (Malachi 2:15).

What Christ Jesus The Messiah did is allow a blood to blood relationship between God and us. This blood to blood or flesh to flesh relationship permeates to the level of our DNA. That’s why Jesus did healing miracles, so as to demonstrate this resurrecting power.

And because of this we have the assurance of resurrection at death but also wholeness and power in this life. (John 10.10)

 

God is now not separated from humanity but has become part of us and we can become part of him.

 

We are not just redeemed in the spirit but also in an earthy, organic manner as well. Atonement and redemption is of the spirit but also of the flesh, our bodies, mind, sexuality etc.

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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Posted: 04 March 2013 at 11:00pm
Originally posted by Webber



Hi Mahdi,
So I'm reading this thread thinking the chapter is quite clear. It says what it says and now you and I both know that we cannot save our father, nor our son from "death" if they choose the wrong path, and we won't cause them any grief if we stray. Was trying to figure out what your point was. The real point of the chapter is in the quote below.
 
<span id="en-NKJV-20880" ="text Ezek-18-30"><sup ="versenum">
30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord <span style="font-variant: small-caps;" ="small-caps">God</span>. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. </span> <span id="en-NKJV-20881" ="text Ezek-18-31"><sup ="versenum">31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? </span> <span id="en-NKJV-20882" ="text Ezek-18-32"><sup ="versenum">32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord <span style="font-variant: small-caps;" ="small-caps">God</span>. “Therefore turn and live!”
</span>
<span ="text Ezek-18-32">This is the verse the chapter is leading up to. Of course "die", and "live" mean die and go to hell, or die and go to heaven. </span>
<span ="text Ezek-18-32"></span> 
<span ="text Ezek-18-32">There's no mention of atonement, no mention of sacrifice, the key word is repent. You repent, turn from your sins, get yourself a new heart, and a new spirit. <-----now that's interesting...</span>
<span ="text Ezek-18-32"></span> 
<span ="text Ezek-18-32">I'm thinking the title of this thread was supposed to be "No Jesus can die for another man's sins, but then you use the Israelites as an example. It's like saying no car can go faster than 15 kph because a horse and buggy couldn't, 100s of yrs ago...(for starters)</span>
<span ="text Ezek-18-32"></span> 
<span ="text Ezek-18-32">I enjoy your posts and ability to use the art of confusion to lead people on. It becomes quite informative, in an off topic way, but bring out more topics that could be discussed, other than the same ole same ole.</span>
<span ="text Ezek-18-32"></span> 
<span ="text Ezek-18-32">Just to clairify...are you talking the Israelites, or about Jesus? </span>
<span ="text Ezek-18-32">If so, a "Jesus" verse is required.</span>
<span ="text Ezek-18-32"></span> 
<span ="text Ezek-18-32">Found this yet?</span>
<span ="text Ezek-18-32">For I, the <span style="font-variant: small-caps;" ="small-caps">Lord</span> your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations. </span>
<span ="text Ezek-18-32"></span><span ="text Ezek-18-32">Now what? </span>
<span ="text Ezek-18-32"></span> 
<span ="text Ezek-18-32">On the subject of sacrifice and atonement, I have a Muslim buddy who sends money home to buy a goat, or two for some traditional ritual thing that somehow relates back to his personal sacrifice and atonement. Maybe someone here has more details.</span>
<span ="text Ezek-18-32"></span> 
<span ="text Ezek-18-32"> </span>
<span ="text Ezek-18-32"></span> 
<span ="text Ezek-18-32"></span> 
<span ="text Ezek-18-32"></span> 
you got my point, even if you may not realise it yet.

1.Nobody can take on the sins of another.Ezekiel 18:20 New Living Translation (©2007) The person who sins is the one who will die

2.There is no need for anybody to die to save another. Each person can save themselves by repenting individually.
21 “But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die.

In Islam, it is the same and more consistent with the way things have always been with regard to repentance and salvation.




Found this yet? For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations. Now what?

Contradiction, as you correctly point out. I already posted a topic related to this exactly titled ' God of the Bible and punishment.'

Edited by Mahdi The Seeke - 04 March 2013 at 11:02pm
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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 05 March 2013 at 2:15am

But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed. 

Isaiah  53:5

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Quote Webber Replybullet Posted: 05 March 2013 at 7:00am
Contradiction, as you correctly point out. I already posted a topic related to this exactly titled ' God of the Bible and punishment.'
 
lol
 
There is a point to be made tho and whether you realize it or not it's pertinent, not so much to the Christians here, but for the ones with the big gaudy crosses, etc. hip hop kinda. The new theology is, "Jesus saves man!" That's about the extent of what they know.
 
Regardless of whether your religion tells you to go through Jesus or around Him, personnal repentance is required.
 
Do Christians actually float around giving you the impression they are saved only cuz Jesus died?


Edited by Webber - 05 March 2013 at 6:33pm
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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Posted: 06 March 2013 at 11:11am
Originally posted by Webber




Contradiction, as you correctly point out. I already posted a topic related to this exactly titled ' God of the Bible and punishment.'
 
lol<span style="font-size: 10px;"></span>
 
There is a point to be made tho and whether you realize it or not it's pertinent, not so much to the Christians here, but for the ones with the big gaudy crosses, etc. hip hop kinda. The new theology is, "Jesus saves man!" That's about the extent of what they know.
 
Regardless of whether your religion tells you to go through Jesus or around Him, personnal repentance is required.
 
Do Christians actually float around giving you the impression they are saved only cuz Jesus died?
Do Christians actually float around giving you the impression they are saved only cuz Jesus died?
yes
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