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Message Icon Topic: BIBLE:NOBODY CAN DIE FOR ANOTHER'S SINS Post Reply Post New Topic
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Mahdi The Seeke
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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Topic: BIBLE:NOBODY CAN DIE FOR ANOTHER'S SINS
    Posted: 29 January 2013 at 11:10am
Ezekiel 18:20
New International Version (NIV)
20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 30 January 2013 at 4:39am
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Ezekiel 18:20
New International Version (NIV)
20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.
 
Wow thank you bro.
 
It's amazing how the Trinitarians changed everything around when they hijacked the Bible and only choose the books that are more favourable to their cause.
 
Keep up the good work. JazakhAllah Khair! 
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Quote Webber Replybullet Posted: 30 January 2013 at 11:21pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Ezekiel 18:20
New International Version (NIV)
20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.
 
Wow thank you bro.
 
It's amazing how the Trinitarians changed everything around when they hijacked the Bible and only choose the books that are more favourable to their cause.
 
Keep up the good work. JazakhAllah Khair! 
 
LOL
I'm a Gentile.
Numb. 6:24-26
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 02 February 2013 at 2:52pm
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Ezekiel 18:20
New International Version (NIV)
20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.


Jazak'Allah brother.
here is another place in OT where something similar has been said:
Psalm 49 (King James Version)
1 "Hear this, all ye people; give ear, all ye inhabitants of the world:

2 Both low and high, rich and poor, together.

3 My mouth shall speak of wisdom; and the meditation of my heart shall be of understanding.

4 I will incline mine ear to a parable: I will open my dark saying upon the harp.

5 Wherefore should I fear in the days of evil, when the iniquity of my heels shall compass me about?

6 They that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches;

7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:"

I am surprised no Christian, who believes in blood sacrifice for ransom of their sins came forward in defense!

The Quran remind us of the same:
"5:36 (Y. Ali) As to those who reject Faith,- if they had everything on earth, and twice repeated, to give as ransom for the penalty of the Day of Judgment, it would never be accepted of them, theirs would be a grievous penalty.
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 02 February 2013 at 2:57pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Mahdi The Seeke
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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Posted: 04 February 2013 at 9:59am
Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Ezekiel 18:20
New International Version (NIV)
20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.


Jazak'Allah brother.
here is another place in OT where something similar has been said:
Psalm 49 (King James Version)
1 "Hear this, all ye people; give ear, all ye inhabitants of the world:

2 Both low and high, rich and poor, together.

3 My mouth shall speak of wisdom; and the meditation of my heart shall be of understanding.

4 I will incline mine ear to a parable: I will open my dark saying upon the harp.

5 Wherefore should I fear in the days of evil, when the iniquity of my heels shall compass me about?

6 They that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches;

7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:"

I am surprised no Christian, who believes in blood sacrifice for ransom of their sins came forward in defense!

The Quran remind us of the same:
"5:36 (Y. Ali) As to those who reject Faith,- if they had everything on earth, and twice repeated, to give as ransom for the penalty of the Day of Judgment, it would never be accepted of them, theirs would be a grievous penalty.
Hasan
it is just so obvious you can't start to refute it. but most even if they have eyes, they refuse to see and even when they have brains, they fail to use their minds and follow preachers dogmas blindly without thinking.
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Quote Empiricist Replybullet Posted: 08 February 2013 at 7:59pm
Everything you say about Christian ignorance can also be said about Muslims.  You prove nothing, hypocrite.
 
Only God forgives sins.  Jesus forgave sins.  What does that mean?
 
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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 09 February 2013 at 3:06pm

Hello Mahdi

You misunderstand Ezekiel 18:20 and appear to think it contradicts Christ’s atonement of sin. This verse has nothing to do with atonement of sin but rather it is about the human consequence of sin and the children not paying the debt of the fathers sin.

 

If you and Abu Loren think this is just a Christian / Trinitarian / pagan invention then consider this. The atonement of Christ is based on the Jewish / Hebrew traditions and scriptures.

The Old Testament law is clear. Blood atonement is necessary. For example –

“For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life”.

 Leviticus 17:11.

See also Leviticus 4:20, 26, 31, 35; 5:10, 13, 16, 18; 6:7; 19:22; and Numbers 15:22-28.

 

Jesus said in Mathew 5.17. he came to fulfill the law “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

 

In him fulfilling the Old Testament law he became the atoning Pass Over Lamb in the Book of Exodus. “The blood will be a sign for you on the houses where you are; and when I see the blood, I will pass over you. No destructive plague will touch you when I strike Egypt”. Exodus 12:13

 

Also read Isaiah chapter 53. -

“Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. 

 

But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. 

 

We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. 

 

He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. 

By oppression [fn] and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. [fn] 

 

He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth. 

 

Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes [fn] his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand. 

 

After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light [of life] [fn] and be satisfied [fn]; by his knowledge [fn] my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. 

 

Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, [fn] and he will divide the spoils with the strong, [fn] because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.” 

 

Just like you got Ezekiel 18.20 wrong, Honeto got Psalm 49 wrong. Verse 7 is about people being unable to give a God a financial ransom. Is has nothing to do with God being made full in Christ and then giving himself as a ransom.

 

As you can see Christ’s atonement is soundly based on the Jewish / Hebrew Old Testament not on some “Trinitarian” Muslim conspiracy theory. . It's amazing how Muslims try to change everything around when they hijack the Bible and only choose the verses that are more favorable to their cause.

 

If you are worried about paganism you need to be more concerned about that Black Rock idol (al-Hajaru-l-Aswad) you bow to 5 times day and walk around in meaningless circles during your idol worship at the Haj.

 



Edited by Experiential - 09 February 2013 at 3:07pm
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Mahdi The Seeke
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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Posted: 12 February 2013 at 10:38am
Originally posted by Experiential

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Hello Mahdi


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">You misunderstand Ezekiel 18:20 and appear to think it contradicts Christ’s atonement of sin. This verse has nothing to do with atonement of sin but rather it is about the human consequence of sin and the children not paying the debt of the fathers sin.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><O:P></O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">If you and Abu Loren think this is just a Christian / Trinitarian / pagan invention then consider this. The atonement of Christ is based on the Jewish / Hebrew traditions and scriptures.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">The Old Testament law is clear. Blood atonement is necessary. For example –


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">“For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life”. <O:P></O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT face="Times New Roman"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Leviticus 17:11. <I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><O:P></O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">See also Leviticus 4:20, 26, 31, 35; 5:10, 13, 16, 18; 6:7; 19:22; and Numbers 15:22-28.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Jesus said in Mathew 5.17. he came to fulfill the law “<I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">In him fulfilling the Old Testament law he became the atoning Pass Over Lamb in the Book of Exodus. “<I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">The blood will be a sign for you on the houses where you are; and when I see the blood, I will pass over you. No destructive plague will touch you when I strike <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN w:st="on"><ST1:PLACE w:st="on">Egypt</ST1:PLACE></ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN>”. Exodus 12:13


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Also read Isaiah chapter 53. -


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">“Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </SPAN><O:P></O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </SPAN><O:P></O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </SPAN><O:P></O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </SPAN><O:P></O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">By oppression [fn] and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. [fn]<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </SPAN><O:P></O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </SPAN><O:P></O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes [fn] his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </SPAN><O:P></O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light [of life] [fn] and be satisfied [fn]; by his knowledge [fn] my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </SPAN><O:P></O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, [fn] and he will divide the spoils with the strong, [fn] because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.”<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </SPAN>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Just like you got Ezekiel 18.20 wrong, Honeto got Psalm 49 wrong. Verse 7 is about people being unable to give a God a financial ransom. Is has nothing to do with God being made full in Christ and then giving himself as a ransom.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">As you can see Christ’s atonement is soundly based on the Jewish / Hebrew Old Testament not on some “Trinitarian” Muslim conspiracy theory. . It's amazing how Muslims try to change everything around when they hijack the Bible and only choose the verses that are more favorable to their cause.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">If you are worried about paganism you need to be more concerned about that Black Rock idol (<SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-style: italic; mso-ansi-: EN" lang=EN>al-Hajaru-l-Aswad) </SPAN>you bow to 5 times day and walk around in meaningless circles during your idol worship at the Haj.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>

so,all one has to do for atonement is kill an animal and offer the blood to God? maybe i should become a christian after all.
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