IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer

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honeto

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Posted: 12 February 2013 at 12:55pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

What was it someone said to me just the other day...

"I'm one of those bizarre types who think 'absolute certainty' of any flavour is actually dangerous. Especially my own. Scripture never persuades me and neither does poetry, unfortunately."

and my response to them;

"And I agree that you are right... claiming absolute certainty is
dangerous. Then we are crossing the line into thinking we have the mind
of God. Though I do believe in absolute authority, I would never
claim to be one to have it. I know what I believe to be true. I know
what seems right to me and will always try to guide others, but I also
can always acknowledge that any one of us could find that we are wrong
in the end."

May God bless and keep us from harm.

Caringheart,
I do not know what to believe of what you say. On this forum you have said before that you do not believe in religion and think that it is man made. And here you are with a religion. Are there two different people behind " Caringheart?
And how are you going to guide anyone, when yourself is lost. You could not even explain without contradicting let alone to convince one person about trinity, the core of your belief.
Hasan

39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"

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Caringheart

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Posted: 12 February 2013 at 2:16pm

Greetings Hasan,

I do not understand what you are saying or what these conclusions are that you are reaching.

Something I posted on another thread;

"I have delved deeply into every thing that is said, to weigh carefully whether the views I have held are clear and true."
It is this that allows me to realize that any one of us could find, in the end, that we have been wrong.
If anything saves me it may be my humility to accept this truth.

Do you have humility?

What is not wrong is what I find in God's Word... the Bible.
With Muhammad I gain nothing that I don't already have, without Jesus I lose everything.

If Muhammad was a prophet of God, then he too follows the teaching of Jesus, and thus is able to lead his people to God. But you must know Jesus,
and I do, know Him. This is not the same as 'having religion'.

I'm guessing that I confuse you because I am not one dimensional, or one-sided. I am open minded to the beliefs of others because I honestly don't believe God belongs in such a small box.

Salaam,
Caringheart

Edited by Caringheart - 12 February 2013 at 6:16pm

Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever

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Caringheart

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Posted: 12 February 2013 at 2:18pm

Hoping to hear back from Nirvana. Smile

Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever

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nirvana

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Posted: 13 February 2013 at 4:59am

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by nirvana

no. i do not choose an all powerful being who is supposed to be love itself but lets innocent people suffer.

Greetings Nirvana,Are you an athiest then... one who does not believe in God? Or is there something else that you believe?Thanks for sharing if you will,Caringheart

i do not believe in any of the gods people worship, whether muslim, Christian,hindu etc. thtoo many loopholes/inconsistencies/contradictions. i cant believe in an all powerful, all knowing God.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
- Epicurus [341–270 B.C.]

Humans are more than capable of moral behavior, altruistic actions, inner peace and happiness on our own. We have a choice to make. We can choose to do what is right regardless of what religion tells us, or we can do what religion tells us, regardless if it is right.

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Caringheart

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Posted: 13 February 2013 at 9:50pm

Originally posted by nirvana

Originally posted by Caringheart

Nirvana,Are you an athiest then... one who does not believe in God? Or is there something else that you believe?Thanks for sharing if you will,Caringheart

Thanks Nirvana for your reply.

So would it be correct to say that you believe in an intrinsic good?
Do you believe in a life after death on earth?
Do you believe that we were created for a purpose? Or is life meaningless?
Can you elaborate more on what you believe? Do you believe in a Creator?
I am very interested.

See without a Creator I can see no purpose for life. That, and I just really believe there is more. I have always had a sense of knowing that there is more... that there is a Creator who does have a purpose for me, for all of this, and I am on a journey of discovery in this lifetime, knowing that it leads to more. How about you?

Caringheart

Edited by Caringheart - 13 February 2013 at 9:53pm

Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever

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nirvana

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Posted: 14 February 2013 at 1:22am

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by nirvana

Originally posted by Caringheart

Nirvana,Are you an athiest then... one who does not believe in God? Or is there something else that you believe?Thanks for sharing if you will,Caringheart

Thanks Nirvana for your reply.So would it be correct to say that you believe in an intrinsic good?Do you believe in a life after death on earth?Do you believe that we were created for a purpose? Or is life meaningless?Can you elaborate more on what you believe? Do you believe in a Creator?I am very interested.See without a Creator I can see no purpose for life. That, and I just really believe there is more. I have always had a sense of knowing that there is more... that there is a Creator who does have a purpose for me, for all of this, and I am on a journey of discovery in this lifetime, knowing that it leads to more. How about you?Caringheart

you are no different than people since the beginning of time. that is why there is some form of religion in every culture all over the world. people use it as an explanation for things they do not understand or to give them comfort that this world/life carries more meaning than an elephant's/lion's. i do not know if God exists for sure because He has never revealed Himself to me.

There are thousands of religions and sects. They all believe that they are the only ones who have found the truth and will be saved and all those who don’t believe in what they believe will not be saved. So what do you do? You can’t believe in any god and be saved. You must believe in the right God. How do you know which god is the real McCoy and which ones are counterfeit? You have to use your reason. But when you use your reason you can’t believe in any god. The belief in God is based on faith not reason.

Now I have said it time and again that I am not against the belief in God. In fact if I could believe in God I would. Unfortunately I can’t.

If you want to believe in a god ask yourself which qualities are more godly and which ones are not. Will God be loving or vengeful?

When you believe in God you can be manipulated by any Tom, Dick and Harry who succeeds to make you believe that they have a message for you from God.

Let reason be your guide. We all have been endowed with enough reason to find our way. Assuming God exists, reason says that if you live an ethical life and don’t hurt others He will be pleased with you even if you never believed in Him. This is my wager. I believe in doing the right thing and living by the Golden Rule. I don’t do to others what I don’t like myself. And I can bet that even if there is a God he is wise enough and loving enough to not send me to hell for not believing in him. He does not give a damn whether we worship him or not. His self-esteem does not depend on the belief or disbelief of his creatures. If He exists, he probably cares about whether we have been good to others or not.

I have been telling people about the Golden Rule. I have been saying all along that beliefs don’t matter, what matter are our deeds.

I do not promote evil and do not condone it. If God exists, I assume he must be wiser than me. If so, I bet He will give a hoot about our beliefs and whether we praise him or not. He will judge us by our deeds. Don’t harm others. If God exists, that is all he cares about. He does not care about our beliefs.

Edited by nirvana - 14 February 2013 at 12:20pm

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Nur_Ilahi

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Posted: 14 February 2013 at 5:50am

Salam Caringheart.

You mentioned
"What is not wrong is what I find in God's Word... the Bible."

First of all are you definitely sure that the Bible is God's words? Did God mention anything about Christians? Did He chose Christianity as the chosen religion?

"With Muhammad I gain nothing that I don't already have, without Jesus I lose everything."

From here I deduct that you are defying Jesus. It is as if Jesus was the one that created you, that gives the breath that you take, that created the earth that you stand on. But you forgot it is God Almighty that you ought to be appreciative of. Losing God Almighty means losing everything.
Perhaps you have not known Muhammad well. If you have known him or read the story of his life, you will acknowledge that there is no other perfect example of a human being other than Prophet Muhammad (May peace be with him). The best example of a human being every lived.

Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

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Reepicheep

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Posted: 14 February 2013 at 8:27am

Nur_Ilahi wrote: there is no other perfect example of a human being other than Prophet Muhammad

According to both the koran and hadith, Mohammad admitted that he was a sinner. For example:

That Allah may forgive thee of thy sin that which is past and that which is to come...Sura al-Fath 48:2

... O Allah! Forgive me my sins that I did in the past or will do in the future, and also the sins I did in secret or in public... Bukhari volume 9, book 93, number 482

If, as Mohammad admits, he was a sinner, then obviously Mohammad wasn't perfect.

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Topic: well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer
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Author	Message
honeto Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2340	Posted: 12 February 2013 at 12:55pm
	*Originally posted by Caringheart* What was it someone said to me just the other day... "I'm one of those bizarre types who think 'absolute certainty' of any flavour is actually dangerous. Especially my own. Scripture never persuades me and neither does poetry, unfortunately." and my response to them; "And I agree that you are right... claiming absolute certainty is dangerous. Then we are crossing the line into thinking we have the mind of God. Though I do believe in absolute authority, I would never claim to be one to have it. I know what I believe to be true. I know what seems right to me and will always try to guide others, but I also can always acknowledge that any one of us could find that we are wrong in the end." May God bless and keep us from harm. Caringheart, I do not know what to believe of what you say. On this forum you have said before that you do not believe in religion and think that it is man made. And here you are with a religion. Are there two different people behind " Caringheart? And how are you going to guide anyone, when yourself is lost. You could not even explain without contradicting let alone to convince one person about trinity, the core of your belief. Hasan
	39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
	IP Logged

Caringheart Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1310	Posted: 12 February 2013 at 2:16pm
	Greetings Hasan, I do not understand what you are saying or what these conclusions are that you are reaching. Something I posted on another thread; "I have delved deeply into every thing that is said, to weigh carefully whether the views I have held are clear and true." It is this that allows me to realize that any one of us could find, in the end, that we have been wrong. If anything saves me it may be my humility to accept this truth. Do you have humility? What is not wrong is what I find in God's Word... the Bible. With Muhammad I gain nothing that I don't already have, without Jesus I lose everything. If Muhammad was a prophet of God, then he too follows the teaching of Jesus, and thus is able to lead his people to God. But you must know Jesus, and I do, know Him. This is not the same as 'having religion'. I'm guessing that I confuse you because I am not one dimensional, or one-sided. I am open minded to the beliefs of others because I honestly don't believe God belongs in such a small box. Salaam, Caringheart Edited by Caringheart - 12 February 2013 at 6:16pm
	Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever
	IP Logged

Caringheart Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1310	Posted: 12 February 2013 at 2:18pm
	Hoping to hear back from Nirvana.
	Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever
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nirvana Newbie Joined: 27 January 2013 Online Status: Offline Posts: 31	Posted: 13 February 2013 at 4:59am
	*Originally posted by Caringheart* *Originally posted by nirvana* no. i do not choose an all powerful being who is supposed to be love itself but lets innocent people suffer. Greetings Nirvana,Are you an athiest then... one who does not believe in God? Or is there something else that you believe?Thanks for sharing if you will,Caringheart i do not believe in any of the gods people worship, whether muslim, Christian,hindu etc. thtoo many loopholes/inconsistencies/contradictions. i cant believe in an all powerful, all knowing God. Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? - Epicurus [341–270 B.C.] Humans are more than capable of moral behavior, altruistic actions, inner peace and happiness on our own. We have a choice to make. We can choose to do what is right regardless of what religion tells us, or we can do what religion tells us, regardless if it is right.
	IP Logged

Caringheart Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1310	Posted: 13 February 2013 at 9:50pm
	*Originally posted by nirvana* *Originally posted by Caringheart* Nirvana,Are you an athiest then... one who does not believe in God? Or is there something else that you believe?Thanks for sharing if you will,Caringheart i do not believe in any of the gods people worship, whether muslim, Christian,hindu etc. thtoo many loopholes/inconsistencies/contradictions. i cant believe in an all powerful, all knowing God. Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? - Epicurus [341–270 B.C.] Humans are more than capable of moral behavior, altruistic actions, inner peace and happiness on our own. We have a choice to make. We can choose to do what is right regardless of what religion tells us, or we can do what religion tells us, regardless if it is right. Thanks Nirvana for your reply. So would it be correct to say that you believe in an intrinsic good? Do you believe in a life after death on earth? Do you believe that we were created for a purpose? Or is life meaningless? Can you elaborate more on what you believe? Do you believe in a Creator? I am very interested. See without a Creator I can see no purpose for life. That, and I just really believe there is more. I have always had a sense of knowing that there is more... that there is a Creator who does have a purpose for me, for all of this, and I am on a journey of discovery in this lifetime, knowing that it leads to more. How about you? Caringheart Edited by Caringheart - 13 February 2013 at 9:53pm
	Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever
	IP Logged

nirvana Newbie Joined: 27 January 2013 Online Status: Offline Posts: 31	Posted: 14 February 2013 at 1:22am
	*Originally posted by Caringheart* *Originally posted by nirvana* *Originally posted by Caringheart* Nirvana,Are you an athiest then... one who does not believe in God? Or is there something else that you believe?Thanks for sharing if you will,Caringheart i do not believe in any of the gods people worship, whether muslim, Christian,hindu etc. thtoo many loopholes/inconsistencies/contradictions. i cant believe in an all powerful, all knowing God. Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? - Epicurus [341–270 B.C.] Humans are more than capable of moral behavior, altruistic actions, inner peace and happiness on our own. We have a choice to make. We can choose to do what is right regardless of what religion tells us, or we can do what religion tells us, regardless if it is right. Thanks Nirvana for your reply.So would it be correct to say that you believe in an intrinsic good?Do you believe in a life after death on earth?Do you believe that we were created for a purpose? Or is life meaningless?Can you elaborate more on what you believe? Do you believe in a Creator?I am very interested.See without a Creator I can see no purpose for life. That, and I just really believe there is more. I have always had a sense of knowing that there is more... that there is a Creator who does have a purpose for me, for all of this, and I am on a journey of discovery in this lifetime, knowing that it leads to more. How about you?Caringheart you are no different than people since the beginning of time. that is why there is some form of religion in every culture all over the world. people use it as an explanation for things they do not understand or to give them comfort that this world/life carries more meaning than an elephant's/lion's. i do not know if God exists for sure because He has never revealed Himself to me. There are thousands of religions and sects. They all believe that they are the only ones who have found the truth and will be saved and all those who don’t believe in what they believe will not be saved. So what do you do? You can’t believe in any god and be saved. You must believe in the right God. How do you know which god is the real McCoy and which ones are counterfeit? You have to use your reason. But when you use your reason you can’t believe in any god. The belief in God is based on faith not reason. Now I have said it time and again that I am not against the belief in God. In fact if I could believe in God I would. Unfortunately I can’t. If you want to believe in a god ask yourself which qualities are more godly and which ones are not. Will God be loving or vengeful? When you believe in God you can be manipulated by any Tom, Dick and Harry who succeeds to make you believe that they have a message for you from God. Let reason be your guide. We all have been endowed with enough reason to find our way. Assuming God exists, reason says that if you live an ethical life and don’t hurt others He will be pleased with you even if you never believed in Him. This is my wager. I believe in doing the right thing and living by the Golden Rule. I don’t do to others what I don’t like myself. And I can bet that even if there is a God he is wise enough and loving enough to not send me to hell for not believing in him. He does not give a damn whether we worship him or not. His self-esteem does not depend on the belief or disbelief of his creatures. If He exists, he probably cares about whether we have been good to others or not. I have been telling people about the Golden Rule. I have been saying all along that beliefs don’t matter, what matter are our deeds. I do not promote evil and do not condone it. If God exists, I assume he must be wiser than me. If so, I bet He will give a hoot about our beliefs and whether we praise him or not. He will judge us by our deeds. Don’t harm others. If God exists, that is all he cares about. He does not care about our beliefs. Edited by nirvana - 14 February 2013 at 12:20pm
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Nur_Ilahi Senior Member Joined: 19 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1031	Posted: 14 February 2013 at 5:50am
	Salam Caringheart. You mentioned "What is not wrong is what I find in God's Word... the Bible." First of all are you definitely sure that the Bible is God's words? Did God mention anything about Christians? Did He chose Christianity as the chosen religion? "With Muhammad I gain nothing that I don't already have, without Jesus I lose everything." From here I deduct that you are defying Jesus. It is as if Jesus was the one that created you, that gives the breath that you take, that created the earth that you stand on. But you forgot it is God Almighty that you ought to be appreciative of. Losing God Almighty means losing everything. Perhaps you have not known Muhammad well. If you have known him or read the story of his life, you will acknowledge that there is no other perfect example of a human being other than Prophet Muhammad (May peace be with him). The best example of a human being every lived.
	Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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Reepicheep Senior Member Joined: 06 November 2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 235	Posted: 14 February 2013 at 8:27am
	Nur_Ilahi wrote: there is no other perfect example of a human being other than Prophet Muhammad According to both the koran and hadith, Mohammad admitted that he was a sinner. For example: That Allah may forgive thee of thy sin that which is past and that which is to come...Sura al-Fath 48:2 ... O Allah! Forgive me my sins that I did in the past or will do in the future, and also the sins I did in secret or in public... Bukhari volume 9, book 93, number 482 If, as Mohammad admits, he was a sinner, then obviously Mohammad wasn't perfect.
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