IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer

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Caringheart

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Posted: 14 February 2013 at 8:48am

Greetings Nur_Ilahi,

"First of all are you definitely sure that the Bible is God's words?"
I am sure. It only takes reading them to be convicted of their Truth.
Christian is only a religion created by man, a label put on the people who follow Jesus. God only calls us to Love and we are called through Jesus.
We are already separated from God by sin... the first sin, which was committed in the garden of Eden, and which separated God from man. Man was no longer pure and God can not be in the presence of anything that is not pure.
It is Jesus who teaches us God's will, God's Love. It is Jesus who leads us to God. It is Jesus who purifies us to return to the presence of God.

and I completely disagree with you about Muhammad. Perhaps you should do some more reading.

Peace and blessings to you,
Caringheart

Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever

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Nur_Ilahi

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Posted: 14 February 2013 at 4:26pm

A perfect example of a human being. Every human being makes mistakes. So did Prophet Muhamamd. And what did he do when he made a mistake? He revert to Allah and asked for forgiveness. So should we. Allah indeed is Al-Ghafur - Most Forgiving.

"Perhaps Allah will put, between you and those to whom you have been enemies among them, affection. And Allah is competent, and Allah is Forgiving and Merciful." - Quran 60:7

Edited by Nur_Ilahi - 14 February 2013 at 4:31pm

Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

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Caringheart

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Posted: 14 February 2013 at 4:54pm

Originally posted by nirvana

you are no different than people since the beginning of time. that is why there is some form of religion in every culture all over the world. people use it as an explanation for things they do not understand or to give them comfort that this world/life carries more meaning than an elephant's/lion's. i do not know if God exists for sure because He has never revealed Himself to me.

There are thousands of religions and sects. They all believe that they are the only ones who have found the truth and will be saved and all those who don’t believe in what they believe will not be saved. So what do you do? You can’t believe in any god and be saved. You must believe in the right God. How do you know which god is the real McCoy and which ones are counterfeit? You have to use your reason. But when you use your reason you can’t believe in any god. The belief in God is based on faith not reason.

Now I have said it time and again that I am not against the belief in God. In fact if I could believe in God I would. Unfortunately I can’t.

If you want to believe in a god ask yourself which qualities are more godly and which ones are not. Will God be loving or vengeful?

When you believe in God you can be manipulated by any Tom, Dick and Harry who succeeds to make you believe that they have a message for you from God.

Let reason be your guide. We all have been endowed with enough reason to find our way. Assuming God exists, reason says that if you live an ethical life and don’t hurt others He will be pleased with you even if you never believed in Him. This is my wager. I believe in doing the right thing and living by the Golden Rule. I don’t do to others what I don’t like myself. And I can bet that even if there is a God he is wise enough and loving enough to not send me to hell for not believing in him. He does not give a damn whether we worship him or not. His self-esteem does not depend on the belief or disbelief of his creatures. If He exists, he probably cares about whether we have been good to others or not.

I have been telling people about the Golden Rule. I have been saying all along that beliefs don’t matter, what matter are our deeds.

I do not promote evil and do not condone it. If God exists, I assume he must be wiser than me. If so, I bet He will give a hoot about our beliefs and whether we praise him or not. He will judge us by our deeds. Don’t harm others. If God exists, that is all he cares about. He does not care about our beliefs.

Greetings Nirvana,

I wonder, If you don't believe in a Creator, do you have thoughts on how life came to be, and do you have any concept of what is the purpose for life? Is there any thing after this life?

Thanks,
Caringheart

Edited by Caringheart - 14 February 2013 at 4:54pm

Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever

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Nur_Ilahi

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Posted: 14 February 2013 at 5:07pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings Nur_Ilahi,"First of all are you definitely sure that the Bible is God's words?"I am sure. It only takes reading them to be convicted of their Truth.

I have no doubt there are some truth in the Bible. Whatever that does not contradict the Quran is acceptable. Afterall originally the Bible was called the Injil or the Gospel - meaning - The Good News. And what good news did the Injil is trying to bring? None other that we worship God The Creator and to expect the last Prophet the seal of all Prophets. But of course, with the manipulation of men, the Bible hid this very important message. I have always wondered, there are many stories of prophets in the Bible similar to the ones we have in the Quran, but where the last and most important one is concerned, it is all blanked out.

Christian is only a religion created by man, - Exactly! Man! A True religion is from God Almighty created by The Almighty for the servants of The Almighty.

a label put on the people who follow Jesus. - If it is from God, God Himself should name it not man. A stamp of approval from none other than The Creator.

This Day, I have perfected your Law /DEEN for you, completed My favor upon you, and chosen for you Al-Islam as the System of Life. Quran 5:3

Originally posted by Caringheart

God only calls us to Love and we are called through Jesus.We are already separated from God by sin... the first sin, which was committed in the garden of Eden, and which separated God from man. Man was no longer pure and God can not be in the presence of anything that is not pure.

True, God calls us to Love. Because the basis of Life is indeed Love. He is the Loving One - Al-Wadud. This is where the Bible is lacking in the descriptions of God's vast attribute. Yes agreed that God is pure - Al-Quddus. Once we sin, we are allowed to repent because he is Al-Afuw - The Pardoner.

Originally posted by Caringheart

It is Jesus who teaches us God's will, God's Love. It is Jesus who leads us to God. It is Jesus who purifies us to return to the presence of God

I do agree to some extent. Jesus was sent to the people of his time teaching God's love and teaching them how to purify their souls. That was the mission of all Prophets including Prophet Muhammad the Last Prophet. But the one who has the Power to purify is not Jesus but God Almighty. He is Al-Muqtadir - The Most Powerful.

Originally posted by Caringheart

and I completely disagree with you about Muhammad. Perhaps you should do some more reading.Peace and blessings to you,Caringheart

Care to tell me what do you disagree about Muhammad? Perhaps it is you who should read about him. Many new Muslims converted to Islam after reading his biography. They become humbled after knowing how he put others before him and how he showed the best example of a human being.

Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

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Caringheart

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Posted: 14 February 2013 at 5:24pm

Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

but where the last and most important one is concerned, it is all blanked out.

Greetings Nur_Ilahi,

You will first have to be disillusioned to see, but nothing is 'blanked out', because it was never there, he was self-created.

and just as Christianity is a religion created by man, Islam is a religion created by man.
and just as Christian is a label placed on those who follow Jesus, muslim is a label placed on those who follow the leadership of Muhammad.

All the words of the qur'an are the words given by Muhammad and you believe them because he himself claimed they were from God.

"43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive." (these words were spoken by Jesus long before Muhammad came)

"This is where the Bible is lacking in the descriptions of God's vast attribute."

Jesus Himself was that attribute, the manifestation of God's Love.

"Care to tell me what do you disagree about Muhammad?"

I can refer you to the thread on this forum called, What is this something else.

Salaam,
Caringheart

Edited by Caringheart - 14 February 2013 at 9:53pm

Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever

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Nur_Ilahi

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Posted: 15 February 2013 at 7:56pm

Greetings to you too Caringheart.

Caringheart you wrote -
You will first have to be disillusioned to see, but nothing is 'blanked out', because it was never there, he was self-created.

Perhaps you have not read carefully your own Bible Caringheart. There are many many instances in the Bible that prophesied the coming of the Prophet, but of course it is safer for you to just ignore it right? Anyway, the Bible sad to say is a corrupted scripture. Prophet Jesus spoke Aramaic, but what you are reading is the translation copy of not even the original one.

and just as Christianity is a religion created by man,

Is this an acknowledgement? Then you are right. Because why? If you depend on your Bible, prove to us any verses in the Bible that says God chose Christianity or even named Christianity as the religion of His choice.

Islam is a religion created by man.
Disagreed.

Indeed Ad-Deen (i.e the System of Life) approved by Allah is Al-Islam (Submission to His Laws and Commands). The people of the Scripture differed for nothing but selfish envy among themselves, after the Knowledge has come to them. One who rejects Allah’s Revelations will find that His Law of Requital is swift in reckoning. Quran 3:19

and just as Christian is a label placed on those who follow Jesus,

Agreed. Christ=Christians

muslim is a label placed on those who follow the leadership of Muhammad.

Disagreed. Muhammad=Muhammadans - wrong. Those following the teachings of Muhammad are called Muslims- Submitting to the will of God Almighty.

All the words of the qur'an are the words given by Muhammad and you believe them because he himself claimed they were from God. This is where I believe that you have not read the Quran carefully Caringheart. Many new converts before converting to Islam, they read the Quran and feels as if God Almighty is speaking directly to them. The Quran is indeed a communication from God to men in the language men understand.

"43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive." (these words were spoken by Jesus long before Muhammad came)

There is some truth in this verse. It indeed is referring to Prophet Muhammad that many received with open arms.

Jesus Himself was that attribute, the manifestation of God's Love

I cannot disagree with this verse because the reason God Almighty sent all these prophets is due to His Love towards His Creations. He sent them as a guide for us to follow, to worship Him, to glorify Him. But sadly some misunderstood instead of glorifying Him, some glorified the Prophet instead. Yes, Jesus was the manifestation of God's Love, but Jesus was not the Creator of the whole universe.

I can refer you to the thread on this forum called, What is this something else.

Perhaps I missed that thread. But there would be other future threads that we can discuss in relating to Prophet Muhammad.

“If the people of the scripture [Christians and Jews> had believed, it would have been better for them; among them are some with faith, but most of them are corrupt.” Quran (3):110

Salam

Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

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Caringheart

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Posted: 15 February 2013 at 8:50pm

Greetings Nu_Ilahi,
No offense meant because you are very sweet and I like you very much,
but I said you would have to come out of your disillusionment to see.
I accept you as you are and with your beliefs.
Salaam,
Caringheart

Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever

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Nur_Ilahi

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Posted: 15 February 2013 at 11:30pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings Nu_Ilahi,No offense meant because you are very sweet and I like you very much,but I said you would have to come out of your disillusionment to see.I accept you as you are and with your beliefs.Salaam,Caringheart

Tks for the compliment Caringheart.

Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

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Topic: well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer
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Author	Message
Caringheart Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1310	Posted: 14 February 2013 at 8:48am
	Greetings Nur_Ilahi, "First of all are you definitely sure that the Bible is God's words?" I am sure. It only takes reading them to be convicted of their Truth. Christian is only a religion created by man, a label put on the people who follow Jesus. God only calls us to Love and we are called through Jesus. We are already separated from God by sin... the first sin, which was committed in the garden of Eden, and which separated God from man. Man was no longer pure and God can not be in the presence of anything that is not pure. It is Jesus who teaches us God's will, God's Love. It is Jesus who leads us to God. It is Jesus who purifies us to return to the presence of God. and I completely disagree with you about Muhammad. Perhaps you should do some more reading. Peace and blessings to you, Caringheart
	Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever
	IP Logged

Nur_Ilahi Senior Member Joined: 19 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1031	Posted: 14 February 2013 at 4:26pm
	A perfect example of a human being. Every human being makes mistakes. So did Prophet Muhamamd. And what did he do when he made a mistake? He revert to Allah and asked for forgiveness. So should we. Allah indeed is Al-Ghafur - Most Forgiving. "Perhaps Allah will put, between you and those to whom you have been enemies among them, affection. And Allah is competent, and Allah is Forgiving and Merciful." - Quran 60:7 Edited by Nur_Ilahi - 14 February 2013 at 4:31pm
	Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
	IP Logged

Caringheart Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1310	Posted: 14 February 2013 at 4:54pm
	*Originally posted by nirvana* you are no different than people since the beginning of time. that is why there is some form of religion in every culture all over the world. people use it as an explanation for things they do not understand or to give them comfort that this world/life carries more meaning than an elephant's/lion's. i do not know if God exists for sure because He has never revealed Himself to me. There are thousands of religions and sects. They all believe that they are the only ones who have found the truth and will be saved and all those who don’t believe in what they believe will not be saved. So what do you do? You can’t believe in any god and be saved. You must believe in the right God. How do you know which god is the real McCoy and which ones are counterfeit? You have to use your reason. But when you use your reason you can’t believe in any god. The belief in God is based on faith not reason. Now I have said it time and again that I am not against the belief in God. In fact if I could believe in God I would. Unfortunately I can’t. If you want to believe in a god ask yourself which qualities are more godly and which ones are not. Will God be loving or vengeful? When you believe in God you can be manipulated by any Tom, Dick and Harry who succeeds to make you believe that they have a message for you from God. Let reason be your guide. We all have been endowed with enough reason to find our way. Assuming God exists, reason says that if you live an ethical life and don’t hurt others He will be pleased with you even if you never believed in Him. This is my wager. I believe in doing the right thing and living by the Golden Rule. I don’t do to others what I don’t like myself. And I can bet that even if there is a God he is wise enough and loving enough to not send me to hell for not believing in him. He does not give a damn whether we worship him or not. His self-esteem does not depend on the belief or disbelief of his creatures. If He exists, he probably cares about whether we have been good to others or not. I have been telling people about the Golden Rule. I have been saying all along that beliefs don’t matter, what matter are our deeds. I do not promote evil and do not condone it. If God exists, I assume he must be wiser than me. If so, I bet He will give a hoot about our beliefs and whether we praise him or not. He will judge us by our deeds. Don’t harm others. If God exists, that is all he cares about. He does not care about our beliefs. Greetings Nirvana, I wonder, If you don't believe in a Creator, do you have thoughts on how life came to be, and do you have any concept of what is the purpose for life? Is there any thing after this life? Thanks, Caringheart Edited by Caringheart - 14 February 2013 at 4:54pm
	Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever
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Nur_Ilahi Senior Member Joined: 19 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1031	Posted: 14 February 2013 at 5:07pm
	*Originally posted by Caringheart* Greetings Nur_Ilahi,"First of all are you definitely sure that the Bible is God's words?"I am sure. It only takes reading them to be convicted of their Truth. I have no doubt there are some truth in the Bible. Whatever that does not contradict the Quran is acceptable. Afterall originally the Bible was called the Injil or the Gospel - meaning - The Good News. And what good news did the Injil is trying to bring? None other that we worship God The Creator and to expect the last Prophet the seal of all Prophets. But of course, with the manipulation of men, the Bible hid this very important message. I have always wondered, there are many stories of prophets in the Bible similar to the ones we have in the Quran, but where the last and most important one is concerned, it is all blanked out. *Christian is only a religion created by man,* - Exactly! Man! A True religion is from God Almighty created by The Almighty for the servants of The Almighty. *a label put on the people who follow Jesus.* - If it is from God, God Himself should name it not man. A stamp of approval from none other than The Creator. This Day, I have perfected your Law /DEEN for you, completed My favor upon you, and chosen for you Al-Islam as the System of Life. Quran 5:3 *Originally posted by Caringheart* God only calls us to Love and we are called through Jesus.We are already separated from God by sin... the first sin, which was committed in the garden of Eden, and which separated God from man. Man was no longer pure and God can not be in the presence of anything that is not pure. True, God calls us to Love. Because the basis of Life is indeed Love. He is the Loving One - Al-Wadud. This is where the Bible is lacking in the descriptions of God's vast attribute. Yes agreed that God is pure - Al-Quddus. Once we sin, we are allowed to repent because he is Al-Afuw - The Pardoner. *Originally posted by Caringheart* It is Jesus who teaches us God's will, God's Love. It is Jesus who leads us to God. It is Jesus who purifies us to return to the presence of God I do agree to some extent. Jesus was sent to the people of his time teaching God's love and teaching them how to purify their souls. That was the mission of all Prophets including Prophet Muhammad the Last Prophet. But the one who has the Power to purify is not Jesus but God Almighty. He is Al-Muqtadir - The Most Powerful. *Originally posted by Caringheart* and I completely disagree with you about Muhammad. Perhaps you should do some more reading.Peace and blessings to you,Caringheart Care to tell me what do you disagree about Muhammad? Perhaps it is you who should read about him. Many new Muslims converted to Islam after reading his biography. They become humbled after knowing how he put others before him and how he showed the best example of a human being.
	Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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Caringheart Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1310	Posted: 14 February 2013 at 5:24pm
	*Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi* but where the last and most important one is concerned, it is all blanked out. Greetings Nur_Ilahi, You will first have to be disillusioned to see, but nothing is 'blanked out', because it was never there, he was self-created. and just as Christianity is a religion created by man, Islam is a religion created by man. and just as Christian is a label placed on those who follow Jesus, muslim is a label placed on those who follow the leadership of Muhammad. All the words of the qur'an are the words given by Muhammad and you believe them because he himself claimed they were from God. "43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive." (these words were spoken by Jesus long before Muhammad came) "This is where the Bible is lacking in the descriptions of God's vast attribute." Jesus Himself was that attribute, the manifestation of God's Love. "Care to tell me what do you disagree about Muhammad?" I can refer you to the thread on this forum called, What is this something else. Salaam, Caringheart Edited by Caringheart - 14 February 2013 at 9:53pm
	Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever
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Nur_Ilahi Senior Member Joined: 19 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1031	Posted: 15 February 2013 at 7:56pm
	Greetings to you too Caringheart. Caringheart you wrote - You will first have to be disillusioned to see, but nothing is 'blanked out', because it was never there, he was self-created. Perhaps you have not read carefully your own Bible Caringheart. There are many many instances in the Bible that prophesied the coming of the Prophet, but of course it is safer for you to just ignore it right? Anyway, the Bible sad to say is a corrupted scripture. Prophet Jesus spoke Aramaic, but what you are reading is the translation copy of not even the original one. and just as Christianity is a religion created by man, Is this an acknowledgement? Then you are right. Because why? If you depend on your Bible, prove to us any verses in the Bible that says God chose Christianity or even named Christianity as the religion of His choice. Islam is a religion created by man. Disagreed. Indeed Ad-Deen (i.e the System of Life) approved by Allah is Al-Islam (Submission to His Laws and Commands). The people of the Scripture differed for nothing but selfish envy among themselves, after the Knowledge has come to them. One who rejects Allah’s Revelations will find that His Law of Requital is swift in reckoning. Quran 3:19 and just as Christian is a label placed on those who follow Jesus, Agreed. Christ=Christians muslim is a label placed on those who follow the leadership of Muhammad. Disagreed. Muhammad=Muhammadans - wrong. Those following the teachings of Muhammad are called Muslims- Submitting to the will of God Almighty. All the words of the qur'an are the words given by Muhammad and you believe them because he himself claimed they were from God. This is where I believe that you have not read the Quran carefully Caringheart. Many new converts before converting to Islam, they read the Quran and feels as if God Almighty is speaking directly to them. The Quran is indeed a communication from God to men in the language men understand. "43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive."* (these words were spoken by Jesus long before Muhammad came)* There is some truth in this verse. It indeed is referring to Prophet Muhammad that many received with open arms. Jesus Himself was that attribute, the manifestation of God's Love I cannot disagree with this verse because the reason God Almighty sent all these prophets is due to His Love towards His Creations. He sent them as a guide for us to follow, to worship Him, to glorify Him. But sadly some misunderstood instead of glorifying Him, some glorified the Prophet instead. Yes, Jesus was the manifestation of God's Love, but Jesus was not the Creator of the whole universe. I can refer you to the thread on this forum called, What is this something else. Perhaps I missed that thread. But there would be other future threads that we can discuss in relating to Prophet Muhammad. “If the people of the scripture [Christians and Jews> had believed, it would have been better for them; among them are some with faith, but most of them are corrupt.” Quran (3):110 Salam
	Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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Caringheart Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1310	Posted: 15 February 2013 at 8:50pm
	Greetings Nu_Ilahi, No offense meant because you are very sweet and I like you very much, but I said you would have to come out of your disillusionment to see. I accept you as you are and with your beliefs. Salaam, Caringheart
	Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever
	IP Logged

Nur_Ilahi Senior Member Joined: 19 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1031	Posted: 15 February 2013 at 11:30pm
	*Originally posted by Caringheart* Greetings Nu_Ilahi,No offense meant because you are very sweet and I like you very much,but I said you would have to come out of your disillusionment to see.I accept you as you are and with your beliefs.Salaam,Caringheart Tks for the compliment Caringheart.
	Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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