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Rational
 
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Quote Rational Replybullet Posted: 26 January 2013 at 11:17am
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Originally posted by TG12345

Whether the Bible is to be trusted or not is another discussion. However, it is clear that according to Christ's words... that are recorded in it... He was claiming to be God.

It's not clear to me. Here are more examples:

John 5:30
"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."

Clear and explicit.

Revelation 3:12
"The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name."

To whom was Jesus calling to? Does God have a God?

Matthew 27:46
"About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli,[a] lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”)"

To whom was Jesus calling to? Surely not to Himself?

You'll probably give me more explanations, because you're committed, and it's hard to let go even when you are faced with hard evidence, even when the language is simple in these verses. Are you 110% convinced with this belief? It was your destiny from God to be a Christian and only He Almighty knows why. But now you're learning and seeking about Muslims, you have an intriguing alternative to what you had before. I only pray that you're giving it a chance.

I don't want to offend, but it's my opinion that the bible can't be trusted. This is not a different discussion, it's the very heart of the discussion.

Originally posted by TG12345

Let me ask you a question. Where in the Quran does Allah say that He is not Satan? Where does Muhammad say Allah is not Satan?

Your question doesn't serve the debate. Why are you asking me to prove something I didn't claim? I never claimed such a thing so why are you asking me to prove it? It doesn't work like that.

Originally posted by TG12345

Do you see how senseless this challenge is?

I don't. You made a claim, I showed you from the Bible that you're wrong. Don't ask me to prove something I didn't claim. Be a man and take it on the chin. It's ok to do that once in a while. It's a sign of honesty and I think you are.

Originally posted by TG12345

If verse 5 could mean anything, then what does it mean? Did Muhammad share glory with God before the world existed?

It could mean anything. And Mohammad (pbuh) never claimed divinity neither did Jesus (pbuh). Not sure why you insist on asking obvious questions.

Originally posted by TG12345

I find that to be quite insulting, actually, but as we are debating and I know you are not attacking or insulting me purposefully I'll let it pass.

It wasn't my intention. I'm only sharing my thoughts because you're saying that God is three persons:

(Person) God the Father
(Person) God the Son
(Person) God the Holy Spirit

= One God. When the Son speaks to the Father, He is speaking to Himself, because One God. Something is wrong here surely. This is known as Multiple Personality Disorder (MPD). No offence but this is what it seems.

Originally posted by TG12345

What's with the slang? Should I start referring to Muhammad as "Mo"?

TG, you shouldn't mock someone for the words they choose to use. People have the freedom of talking the way they like. "Chilling" means relaxing and taking a break. Nothing offensive.

Originally posted by TG12345

Because she did not recognize Him.

So she thought he was the gardener? God choose to look like a gardener? God? Maybe he was holding some gardening tools. Seems strange. And how come all of a sudden no one can recognise Jesus? Why is it that he needs to show his hands and feet to prove it's him? Surely the people knew his face better than anything? More mysteries.

Originally posted by TG12345

Because one of the times He tried to do that, people thought He was a spirit.

Didn't God know that He would scare them? Or did God scare them deliberately so that the next time, He can show His feet and hands? And they didn't
recognise his face? So only when he showed his hands and feet they were able to identify him? Really strange!

Originally posted by TG12345

Like you believe it was His will to send 124,000 prophets to earth even though only one's message according to what your faith teaches would be not corrupted.

This belief is sound, it makes perfect sense.
 

God sent every prophet with the same message being, worship one God and don’t associate any partners with God. They were sent over time and to different people. Allah (SWT) set various signs, tasks, examples, lessons to every prophet. They went through many trials and tribulations. Why? For us to benefit and learn. To take them as role models and live by their experiences. That's why Allah (subhanaho wa ta'ala) gave them high status. It's beautiful when everything makes sense.

"
We have sent forth other Messengers before you and given them wives and descendants. Yet none of them could bring a sign except by the permission of Allah. Every term has its Book." (13:38)

And if He Almighty wanted, He could have easily guided everyone from the beginning.

"Had Allah willed, He could have made you one nation but that He might try you by that which He has bestowed upon you. Race with one another in good works, to Allah you shall all return and He will declare to you what you were at variance." (5:48)

EVALUATION OF THE DIVINE MESSAGES
http://home.swipnet.se/islam/books/islam-mankind/04.htm

Originally posted by TG12345

I won't speculate on God's mind and what I am about to share is my opinion only, however perhaps one reason why He would choose to make Himself inferior would be to demonstrate to human beings what it means to be humble to God and to sacrifice. If God was able to make Himself humble and to love sacrificially, what excuse have we for not doing so?

Don't you at least suspect that the reason he was
inferior was because he is not God? Because he fears God? Would God fear Himself? Why would he choose to pray to Himself? What is that teaching you, to pray to youself? Why didn't he come forth and say "I am your God, so worship me"? Why would God come among the people to punish Himself? Does He need to do this to show us love? Is that what you need to believe that God loves you? Why didn't he punish and crucify Adam since he is the root of the problem (in your belief)? Many problems and unsolved mysteries with this ideology.

God Almighty has already provided a sufficient lesson about sacrifice when he set that task upon Ibraheem (alaihi as-salaam) and instructed him to kill his only son. And just before Ibraheem (alaihi as-salaam) did, Allah (azza wa jall) stopped him and told him he had passed the test. Ibraheem didn't realize, until after, that Allah (subhanaho wa ta'ala) loves his son more than he did. Through Ibraheem (alaihi as-salaam), Allah taught us a valuable lesson, that we must not live our lifes the way we want, we must sacrifice all our desires in this life and follow the way that Allah intended for us, because He created us, He knows what's best for us, in everything. And if we pass, we win.

"Such are the Bounds of Allah. He who obeys Allah and His Messenger, He will admit him to Gardens underneath which rivers flow. That is a great wining." (4:13)


Edited by Rational - 26 January 2013 at 3:07pm
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 26 January 2013 at 12:10pm
Greetings Rational,

in reply to yor response to me.  You are welcome. Smile

As regards some of the things in your discussion with TG;
My thoughts as I was reading.
John 5:30 - "I can of mine own self do nothing"
    Can your arm do anything without your brain?
Matthew 27:46 - Have you ever had your arm go dead asleep and wondered where it had gone... why your brain was not responding to your request to make it move?
    Jesus was as the arm of God.
These verses only don't make sense to you because you have been taught not to trust them.

"Your question doesn't serve the debate."
I think that is what TG was demonstrating... that the question you ask... the thing you are asking for, is not a rational thing to be asking.

" And how come all of a sudden no one can recognise Jesus? Why is it that he needs to show his hands and feet to prove it's him? Surely the people knew his face better than anything? More mysteries."
I will just share with you... I would say, Do not think that Christians do not ask these same questions... I know that I have.  I also accept that I do not have all answers, nor should I expect to.  When has God ever fully revealed Himself?  How could our mind possibly receive the fullness of what God has to offer?  I accept what the Apostles had to say as they went about spreading the word of Jesus.  I accept that, (after having run away in fear for their own lives) they were then convinced enough to die for Jesus and for testimony of Him.   Something tremendous had to have occurred to bring about this change of heart.   I accept that they were obviously believable enough to convince many others, and the belief in Jesus never died but grew and survived these last 2012 years.

Salaam,
Caringheart
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
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Quote Rational Replybullet Posted: 26 January 2013 at 12:34pm
Originally posted by TG12345

Quite frankly, I am surprised the Muslim posters here didn't jump in sooner than I did on this one.

Maybe becasue he asked you TG.
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Quote Rational Replybullet Posted: 26 January 2013 at 1:02pm
Originally posted by TG12345

Salaam Alaikum, Rational.

God both died as the Son and stayed alive as the Father and Holy Spirit.

But did the One God die?


Edited by Rational - 26 January 2013 at 1:09pm
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Quote Rational Replybullet Posted: 28 January 2013 at 5:21am
Originally posted by Caringheart

John 5:30 - "I can of mine own self do nothing"
    Can your arm do anything without your brain?
Matthew 27:46 - Have you ever had your arm go dead asleep and wondered where it had gone... why your brain was not responding to your request to make it move?
    Jesus was as the arm of God.

I thought you believe that God (Almighty) can do anything? All of a sudden you're describing Him like me? Like Jesus was asleep (the arm) because the father wasn't awake (the brain)? We humans have limitations, Does God have those limitations? Why are you describing Him in the first place? Weren't you the one who said:
Originally posted by Caringheart

God is not anything we with our human minds can describe.

^ contradiction and confusion on your part?

Originally posted by Caringheart

"Your question doesn't serve the debate."
I think that is what TG was demonstrating... that the question you ask... the thing you are asking for, is not a rational thing to be asking.

Let's make this even more simple. TG's question doesn't serve the debate because he is asking me to prove something I DIDN'T claim. I'm asking him to prove something he DID claim, that Jesus is God and to be worshiped. He is running away from this question because he can't provide any explicit proof from the bible. Because of this he's evading it by asking me to provide something I never said.

Originally posted by Caringheart

I will just share with you... I would say, Do not think that Christians do not ask these same questions... I know that I have.

Why are you talking on behalf of Christians? Why are you even talking as a Christian? Christianity is a religion, is it not? You support your believes from the bible, the book that happens to be the umbrella of Christianity, no? Weren't you the one who said:
Originally posted by Caringheart

I have said before that I do not believe in religion.  Religion is a thing of man.

^ contradiction and confusion on your part?


Edited by Rational - 28 January 2013 at 4:48pm
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 28 January 2013 at 10:13am

Greetings Rational,

No, no contradiction or confusion. Smile
I'm not, 'describing Him', I'm giving a human analogy.  God controls all.  Doesn't the brain control all that the body does?  All the parts of the body, are parts of one body, but yet all the parts are controlled  by the brain.
Christian is just a word that refers to people who follow Jesus.  A word that can mean many things to many people.   I am simply making a reference to people who follow Jesus, however they may follow Him. (I am usually more careful in choosing my wording.  i did not realize you would pick at minutia.)  
Anyone who reads the Bible would have to ask themselves the same questions that you ask.
Just as anyone who would read the qu'ran would have to ask the same questions that I ask...
that is, if they are truly seeking after Truth.

Salaam,
Caringheart
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 28 January 2013 at 1:18pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings Rational,in reply to yor response to me.  You are welcome. [IMG]smileys/smiley1.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" />As regards some of the things in your discussion with TG;My thoughts as I was reading.John 5:30 - "I can of mine own self do nothing"    Can your arm do anything without your brain?Matthew 27:46 - Have you ever had your arm go dead asleep and wondered where it had gone... why your brain was not responding to your request to make it move?    Jesus was as the arm of God.These verses only don't make sense to you because you have been taught not to trust them.
"Your question doesn't serve the debate."
I think that is what TG was demonstrating... that the question you ask... the thing you are asking for, is not a rational thing to be asking.
" And how come all of a sudden no one can recognise Jesus? Why is it that he needs to show his hands and feet to prove it's him? Surely the people knew his face better than anything? More mysteries."
I will just share with you... I would say, Do not think that Christians do not ask these same questions... I know that I have.  I also accept that I do not have all answers, nor should I expect to.  When has God ever fully revealed Himself?  How could our mind possibly receive the fullness of what God has to offer?  I accept what the Apostles had to say as they went about spreading the word of Jesus.  I accept that, (after having run away in fear for their own lives) they were then convinced enough to die for Jesus and for testimony of Him.   Something tremendous had to have occurred to bring about this change of heart.   I accept that they were obviously believable enough to convince many others, and the belief in Jesus never died but grew and survived these last 2012 years.Salaam,Caringheart



Carinheart,
a human arm/hand in order to be moved is dependent on the brain as you said, and many more things. God on the other hand is not dependent on anything. God is free of any needs and God does not depend on any. For God it's easy to get any task done, for Him it is like to say "be" and it is done!
Of course, the guidance God sent through the propehts, like health comes through the physicians. God's work is done through His creation. We all are His creations and His servants, some deny that, and to them if they continue to deny till their death, God will show the truth that day and they will not be able to fix it then.
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 28 January 2013 at 1:44pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 28 January 2013 at 5:56pm
Originally posted by Rational

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته


Wa alaikum salaam.

Originally posted by TG12345

Whether the Bible is to be trusted or not is another discussion. However, it is clear that according to Christ's words... that are recorded in it... He was claiming to be God.

Originally posted by Rational

It's not clear to me. Here are more examples:

John 5:30
"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."

Clear and explicit.

Yes. It is also clear and explicit that Jesus made Himself voluntarily inferior to the Father although He was in the form of God.

Originally posted by Rational

Revelation 3:12

"The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name."

To whom was Jesus calling to? Does God have a God?

Jesus often referred to the Father as His God. God exists as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Originally posted by Rational

Matthew 27:46

"About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli,[a] lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”)"

To whom was Jesus calling to? Surely not to Himself?

He was calling to the Father.

Originally posted by Rational

You'll probably give me more explanations, because you're committed, and it's hard to let go even when you are faced with hard evidence, even when the language is simple in these verses. Are you 110% convinced with this belief? It was your destiny from God to be a Christian and only He Almighty knows why. But now you're learning and seeking about Muslims, you have an intriguing alternative to what you had before. I only pray that you're giving it a chance.

I pray every night that God leads Muslims to the truth. I also pray that if I am mistaken about Him, He show me.

Originally posted by Rational

I don't want to offend, but it's my opinion that the bible can't be trusted. This is not a different discussion, it's the very heart of the discussion.

Then why are you referring to it to claim Jesus did not say He is God?

Originally posted by TG12345

Let me ask you a question. Where in the Quran does Allah say that He is not Satan? Where does Muhammad say Allah is not Satan?

Originally posted by Rational

Your question doesn't serve the debate. Why are you asking me to prove something I didn't claim? I never claimed such a thing so why are you asking me to prove it? It doesn't work like that.

You are right, that is a bad example.

Let me ask you this: Do you believe God is better than Satan?

If so, please show me a verse that states "Allah is better than Satan".


Originally posted by TG12345

Do you see how senseless this challenge is?

Originally posted by Rational

I don't. You made a claim, I showed you from the Bible that you're wrong.

You didn't show from the Bible that I am wrong in stating Jesus is God. Jesus did not say anywhere in the Bible "I am God, worship me", but He said many other things that a person would not say unless he was claiming to be God.

You have not shown me a verse in the Bible where Jesus said "I am not God, do not worship me".

Originally posted by Rational

Don't ask me to prove something I didn't claim. Be a man and take it on the chin. It's ok to do that once in a while. It's a sign of honesty and I think you are.

You are right, I gave a bad example. Asking you to prove something you didn't claim is definitely not equivalent to you asking me to prove something to you that I did claim.

Let me use another example then.

Do you believe Allah is better than Satan?

Originally posted by TG12345

If verse 5 could mean anything, then what does it mean? Did Muhammad share glory with God before the world existed?

Originally posted by Rational

It could mean anything. And Mohammad (pbuh) never claimed divinity neither did Jesus (pbuh). Not sure why you insist on asking obvious questions.

You didn't answer my question.

Did Muhammad claim he shared glory with God before the world existed? Did he claim he will judge the nations and decide who goes to heaven and hell? Did he claim that those who have seen him have seen God, and that he and God are one?

Originally posted by TG12345

I find that to be quite insulting, actually, but as we are debating and I know you are not attacking or insulting me purposefully I'll let it pass.

Originally posted by Rational

It wasn't my intention. I'm only sharing my thoughts because you're saying that God is three persons:

(Person) God the Father
(Person) God the Son
(Person) God the Holy Spirit

= One God. When the Son speaks to the Father, He is speaking to Himself, because One God. Something is wrong here surely. This is known as Multiple Personality Disorder (MPD). No offence but this is what it seems.

Sorry for misjudging you. I don't believe God has MPD because He speaks to Himself as the three persons.

Your claim of God having a Multiple Personality Disorder can be also alleged against Islam.

17:1

Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,- in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things).

http://quran.com/17

God refers to Himself in this passage both as "We" and "He". Are there two gods? Did God #1 take His servant on a journey from the sacred mosque to the farthest mosque, which was blessed by God #2, who then acknowledges God #1 hears and sees all things?

Are there 2 Gods or does God have MPD? Or is this the kind of language you believed He used to express Himself?

Originally posted by TG12345

What's with the slang? Should I start referring to Muhammad as "Mo"?

Originally posted by Rational

TG, you shouldn't mock someone for the words they choose to use. People have the freedom of talking the way they like. "Chilling" means relaxing and taking a break. Nothing offensive.

No, you're right on that one. I say "chilling" all the time, actually usually I say "chillaxing". Usually use it with my friends and students, not during religious debate, but there's nothing wrong with it.

Originally posted by TG12345

Because she did not recognize Him.

Originally posted by Rational

So she thought he was the gardener? God choose to look like a gardener? God? Maybe he was holding some gardening tools. Seems strange. And how come all of a sudden no one can recognise Jesus? Why is it that he needs to show his hands and feet to prove it's him? Surely the people knew his face better than anything? More mysteries.

Why would God not disguise Himself? How do you know His face was uncovered? Jesus' hands and feet were pierced by the nails, seeing them would be proof of His crucifixion.

Originally posted by TG12345

Because one of the times He tried to do that, people thought He was a spirit.

Originally posted by Rational

Didn't God know that He would scare them? Or did God scare them deliberately so that the next time, He can show His feet and hands? And they didn't
recognise his face? So only when he showed his hands and feet they were able to identify him? Really strange!

Yes, when they saw and touched His hands and feet they were convinced it was Him. Jesus said that those who believe without seeing are the ones who are blessed. He realized they had weak faith, they were human beings.

Originally posted by TG12345

Like you believe it was His will to send 124,000 prophets to earth even though only one's message according to what your faith teaches would be not corrupted.

Originally posted by Rational

This belief is sound, it makes perfect sense.
 

God sent every prophet with the same message being, worship one God and don’t associate any partners with God. They were sent over time and to different people. Allah (SWT) set various signs, tasks, examples, lessons to every prophet. They went through many trials and tribulations. Why? For us to benefit and learn. To take them as role models and live by their experiences. That's why Allah (subhanaho wa ta'ala) gave them high status. It's beautiful when everything makes sense.

"
We have sent forth other Messengers before you and given them wives and descendants. Yet none of them could bring a sign except by the permission of Allah. Every term has its Book." (13:38)

And if He Almighty wanted, He could have easily guided everyone from the beginning.

"Had Allah willed, He could have made you one nation but that He might try you by that which He has bestowed upon you. Race with one another in good works, to Allah you shall all return and He will declare to you what you were at variance." (5:48)

EVALUATION OF THE DIVINE MESSAGES
http://home.swipnet.se/islam/books/islam-mankind/04.htm [/Quote]

If God chose not to guide people from the beginning, does this mean it is His will that people would wander off His path?

Why was God according to your faith incapable of sending just one messenger and getting His message out the first time? Why did He not preserve all of the books before the Quran? Was He incapable of making sure their message wouldn't be lost? Were the prophets He sent not good or competent enough, so He had to finally send Muhammad?

How is it possible that the Jews and Christians hid the traits and descriptions of Muhammad in the Torah and Injil, while at the same time Christians and Jews are ordered to look into these books to find him mentioned there?

Talk about strange and contradictory!

Originally posted by TG12345

I won't speculate on God's mind and what I am about to share is my opinion only, however perhaps one reason why He would choose to make Himself inferior would be to demonstrate to human beings what it means to be humble to God and to sacrifice. If God was able to make Himself humble and to love sacrificially, what excuse have we for not doing so?

Originally posted by Rational

Don't you at least suspect that the reason he was
inferior was because he is not God?

If He wasn't God, He wouldn't have claimed that those who have seen Him have seen the Father. He also would have rebuked those who worshiped Him. He would have not done and said a lot of things that He both did and said.

Originally posted by Rational

Because he fears God? Would God fear Himself? Why would he choose to pray to Himself? What is that teaching you, to pray to youself?

Because He chose to lead by example. In a math classroom, a good teacher does examples with the students and demonstrates how to solve them, even though he knows them by heart.

Originally posted by Rational

Why didn't he come forth and say "I am your God, so worship me"?

Because He chose to allow people to come to that conclusion themselves. He helped them by saying things that only God would say.

Originally posted by Rational

Why would God come among the people to punish Himself? Does He need to do this to show us love?

God didn't need to do anything. He chose to do them.

Originally posted by Rational

Is that what you need to believe that God loves you?

No, I would believe Him regardless. Yet this is what He chose to do for us, and I love Him and am thankful to Him.

Originally posted by Rational

Why
didn't he punish and crucify Adam since he is the root of the problem (in your belief)?

Because He chose to suffer on the cross as Jesus.

[QUOTE=Rational]Many problems and unsolved mysteries with this ideology.

If you choose to doubt Him and reject what He has done for you, I am sure you will see many problems.


[QUOTE=Rational] God Almighty has already provided a sufficient lesson about sacrifice when he set that task upon Ibraheem (alaihi as-salaam) and instructed him to kill his only son. And just before Ibraheem (alaihi as-salaam) did, Allah (azza wa jall) stopped him and told him he had passed the test. Ibraheem didn't realize, until after, that Allah (subhanaho wa ta'ala) loves his son more than he did. Through Ibraheem (alaihi as-salaam), Allah taught us a valuable lesson, that we must not live our lifes the way we want, we must sacrifice all our desires in this life and follow the way that Allah intended for us, because He created us, He knows what's best for us, in everything. And if we pass, we win.

"Such are the Bounds of Allah. He who obeys Allah and His Messenger, He will admit him to Gardens underneath which rivers flow. That is a great wining." (4:13)

This was a powerful lesson God showed through Abraham. Another powerful lesson was Him showing His love for us by willing to suffer and die for us.

Looking forward to reading your response. Sorry again for the time it took. My responses will probably take more time since I am getting a bit busy.

Peace in Christ.
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