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Empiricist
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Quote Empiricist Replybullet Posted: 08 February 2013 at 8:52pm
Originally posted by truthnowcome

IT IS OK TO SUBMIT YOUR OPINION NO OFFENSE!
PROVE MY ARGUMENT WRONG!

BR.ZAINOOL

You are correct- but you cannot comprehend it.  Jesus is a human being, as we all are.  We also have spirits, like Jesus.  Where does our spirit come from?  God.  But JESUS' spirit was GOD.  I guess this is why he is called Son of God.  You only try to find fault, some way to say it cannot be true.  Some little detail.  This is legalism.  You are a hypocrite and a Pharisee.  You will not see the kingdom of heaven, no matter how many times you pray to Allah today.  I don't think your Allah is the true God.  I think he is a false God.  
I pray to JESUS, who GOD gave us to be the link to God.  God knows it is hard if not impossible for us to worhsip something we cannot see.  So he gave us Jesus, an man with the spirit of God, perfection.  Don's ask how, or why, it doesn't matter.  Just accept that God is doing this for OUR benefit, not to have us go to Hell if we don't follow Muhammed hundreds of years later, with a much different message.  Sorry.  Cannot be.  Muhammed is a false prophet.
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 09 February 2013 at 2:53am
Originally posted by Empiricist

You are correct- but you cannot comprehend it.  Jesus is a human being, as we all are.  We also have spirits, like Jesus.  Where does our spirit come from?  God.  But JESUS' spirit was GOD.  I guess this is why he is called Son of God.  You only try to find fault, some way to say it cannot be true.  Some little detail.  This is legalism.  You are a hypocrite and a Pharisee.  You will not see the kingdom of heaven, no matter how many times you pray to Allah today.  I don't think your Allah is the true God.  I think he is a false God.  
I pray to JESUS, who GOD gave us to be the link to God.  God knows it is hard if not impossible for us to worhsip something we cannot see.  So he gave us Jesus, an man with the spirit of God, perfection.  Don's ask how, or why, it doesn't matter.  Just accept that God is doing this for OUR benefit, not to have us go to Hell if we don't follow Muhammed hundreds of years later, with a much different message.  Sorry.  Cannot be.  Muhammed is a false prophet.
 
The following is for Empiricist.
 
Muhsin Khan
 
And nothing prevents men from believing, now when the guidance (the Quran) has come to them, and from asking Forgiveness of their Lord, except that the ways of the ancients be repeated with them (i.e. their destruction decreed by Allah), or the torment be brought to them face to face?
And We send not the Messengers except as giver of glad tidings and warners. But those who disbelieve, dispute with false argument, in order to refute the truth thereby. And they treat My Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), and that with which they are warned, as jest and mockery!
And who does more wrong than he who is reminded of the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of his Lord, but turns away from them forgetting what (deeds) his hands have sent forth. Truly, We have set veils over their hearts lest they should understand this (the Quran), and in their ears, deafness. And if you (O Muhammad SAW) call them to guidance, even then they will never be guided.
18:55-57
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Quote Empiricist Replybullet Posted: 09 February 2013 at 8:58pm
A few more comments- it is difficult to comprehend the dualistic nature of Jesus.  Jesus was baptised to fulfill prophesy.  God spoke at this time about Jesus....

The Baptism of Jesus (from Matthew 3)

13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John.S)'> 14 But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”

15 Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened,T)'> and he saw the Spirit of GodU)'> descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heavenV)'> said, “This is my Son,W)'> whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

So the SPIRIT of GOD descended into Jesus.  I can only assume this is what Jesus spoke of about being ONE with God.  Jesus the MAN had the sprit of God in him and knew God directly.  So Jesus was a man and God at the same time.  But this does not mean nobody was "holding the fort" while God was in Jesus- God can of course do other things and can have many forms I think. 

Once this remarkable event occurred and Jesus was transformed, he went for 40 days in seclusion.  Satan tried to tempt him away from God. 

Jesus Is Tested in the Wilderness (Matthew 4)A)'>

Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempteda]'>[a]B)'> by the devil.C)'> After fasting forty days and forty nights,D)'> he was hungry. The tempterE)'> came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God,F)'> tell these stones to become bread.”

Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’b]'>[b]G)'>

Then the devil took him to the holy cityH)'> and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,”I)'> he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:

“‘He will command his angels concerning you,
    and they will lift you up in their hands,
    so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’c]'>[c]J)'>

Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’d]'>[d]K)'>

Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan!L)'> For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’e]'>[e]M)'>

11 Then the devil left him,N)'> and angels came and attended him.

So Jesus is not just a prophet but had a unique status of housing the sprit of God, and was able to because God created him for this purpose. 

Other references to the holy spirit make up the third part of the "trinity", man's attempt to explain the three aspects of God displayed in the bible. 
 
What does NOT make sense to me is all the quibbling over Jesus, if he is God or just a Man or whatever.  This is just more of satanic forces trying to cause doubt about what GOD was doing- to show MAN what the perfect man could be- Jesus, and that Jesus was basically God incarnate.  Jesus continually tries to get the message across that one is to have faith in God, and one will be able to do miracles, even walking on water.  It is not about following a long list of rules and laws, as the Pharisees did. 
 
Jesus fulfilled a long list of prophesies.  God had a plan for it all and it culminated with Jesus.  I don't see how along comes Muhammed and we now have a revision that encourages many evil intentions and actions.  Did God make a mistake?  No I don't think so.  I think God only needs one attempt.  Man needs many.   Anyway Jesus makes it clear who he is and he is "Not of this world".   Jesus was challenged much the same way Muslims continue to challenge him.  Read for yourself his response.
 

Dispute Over Jesus’ Testimony

12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I amJ)'> the light of the world.K)'> Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”L)'>

13 The Pharisees challenged him, “Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid.”M)'>

14 Jesus answered, “Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going.N)'> But you have no idea where I come fromO)'> or where I am going. 15 You judge by human standards;P)'> I pass judgment on no one.Q)'> 16 But if I do judge, my decisions are true, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me.R)'> 17 In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is true.S)'> 18 I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me.”T)'>

19 Then they asked him, “Where is your father?”

“You do not know me or my Father,”U)'> Jesus replied. “If you knew me, you would know my Father also.”V)'> 20 He spoke these words while teachingW)'> in the temple courts near the place where the offerings were put.X)'> Yet no one seized him, because his hour had not yet come.Y)'>

Dispute Over Who Jesus Is (John 8)

21 Once more Jesus said to them, “I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will dieZ)'> in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come.”AA)'>

22 This made the Jews ask, “Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, ‘Where I go, you cannot come’?”

23 But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.AB)'> 24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he,AC)'> you will indeed die in your sins.”

25 “Who are you?” they asked.

“Just what I have been telling you from the beginning,” Jesus replied. 26 “I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is trustworthy,AD)'> and what I have heard from him I tell the world.”AE)'>

27 They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28 So Jesus said, “When you have lifted upa]'>[a] the Son of Man,AF)'> then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.AG)'> 29 The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone,AH)'> for I always do what pleases him.”AI)'> 30 Even as he spoke, many believed in him.AJ)'>

Dispute Over Whose Children Jesus’ Opponents Are

31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching,AK)'> you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”AL)'>

33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendantsAM)'> and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”

34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.AN)'> 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever.AO)'> 36 So if the Son sets you free,AP)'> you will be free indeed. 37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me,AQ)'> because you have no room for my word. 38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence,AR)'> and you are doing what you have heard from your father.b]'>[b]AS)'>

39 “Abraham is our father,” they answered.

“If you were Abraham’s children,”AT)'> said Jesus, “then you wouldc]'>[c] do what Abraham did. 40 As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me,AU)'> a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God.AV)'> Abraham did not do such things. 41 You are doing the works of your own father.”AW)'>

“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”AX)'>

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me,AY)'> for I have come here from God.AZ)'> I have not come on my own;BA)'> God sent me.BB)'> 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil,BC)'> and you want to carry out your father’s desires.BD)'> He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.BE)'> 45 Yet because I tell the truth,BF)'> you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says.BG)'> The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

Jesus’ Claims About Himself

48 The Jews answered him, “Aren’t we right in saying that you are a SamaritanBH)'> and demon-possessed?”BI)'>

49 “I am not possessed by a demon,” said Jesus, “but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. 50 I am not seeking glory for myself;BJ)'> but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51 Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.”BK)'>

52 At this they exclaimed, “Now we know that you are demon-possessed!BL)'> Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that whoever obeys your word will never taste death. 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham?BM)'> He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”

54 Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself,BN)'> my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.BO)'> 55 Though you do not know him,BP)'> I know him.BQ)'> If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word.BR)'> 56 Your father AbrahamBS)'> rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw itBT)'> and was glad.”

57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born,BU)'> I am!”BV)'> 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him,BW)'> but Jesus hid himself,BX)'> slipping away from the temple grounds.

So believing in Jesus will give you eternal life.  Those that do not, are not of God but of Satan.  They do not hear Jesus.  And to repeat 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin?  THIS is the difference between man and Jesus.  Jesus was from God and his spirit never dies.  He is at the right hand of God but of course is present when 2 or more gather and pray for him.  He can somehow be everywhere at once.  Man cannot attempt to explain how God works.  Only God knows.
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 10 February 2013 at 2:07am
Originally posted by Empiricist

A few more comments- it is difficult to comprehend the dualistic nature of Jesus.  Jesus was baptised to fulfill prophesy.  God spoke at this time about Jesus....

The Baptism of Jesus (from Matthew 3)

13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John.S)'> 14 But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”

15 Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened,T)'> and he saw the Spirit of GodU)'> descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heavenV)'> said, “This is my Son,W)'> whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

So the SPIRIT of GOD descended into Jesus.  I can only assume this is what Jesus spoke of about being ONE with God.  Jesus the MAN had the sprit of God in him and knew God directly.  So Jesus was a man and God at the same time.  But this does not mean nobody was "holding the fort" while God was in Jesus- God can of course do other things and can have many forms I think. 

Once this remarkable event occurred and Jesus was transformed, he went for 40 days in seclusion.  Satan tried to tempt him away from God. 

Jesus Is Tested in the Wilderness (Matthew 4)A)'>

Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempteda]'>[a]B)'> by the devil.C)'> After fasting forty days and forty nights,D)'> he was hungry. The tempterE)'> came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God,F)'> tell these stones to become bread.”

Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’b]'>[b]G)'>

Then the devil took him to the holy cityH)'> and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,”I)'> he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:

“‘He will command his angels concerning you,
    and they will lift you up in their hands,
    so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’c]'>[c]J)'>

Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’d]'>[d]K)'>

Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan!L)'> For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’e]'>[e]M)'>

11 Then the devil left him,N)'> and angels came and attended him.

So Jesus is not just a prophet but had a unique status of housing the sprit of God, and was able to because God created him for this purpose. 

Other references to the holy spirit make up the third part of the "trinity", man's attempt to explain the three aspects of God displayed in the bible. 
 
What does NOT make sense to me is all the quibbling over Jesus, if he is God or just a Man or whatever.  This is just more of satanic forces trying to cause doubt about what GOD was doing- to show MAN what the perfect man could be- Jesus, and that Jesus was basically God incarnate.  Jesus continually tries to get the message across that one is to have faith in God, and one will be able to do miracles, even walking on water.  It is not about following a long list of rules and laws, as the Pharisees did. 
 
Jesus fulfilled a long list of prophesies.  God had a plan for it all and it culminated with Jesus.  I don't see how along comes Muhammed and we now have a revision that encourages many evil intentions and actions.  Did God make a mistake?  No I don't think so.  I think God only needs one attempt.  Man needs many.   Anyway Jesus makes it clear who he is and he is "Not of this world".   Jesus was challenged much the same way Muslims continue to challenge him.  Read for yourself his response.
 

Dispute Over Jesus’ Testimony

12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I amJ)'> the light of the world.K)'> Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”L)'>

13 The Pharisees challenged him, “Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid.”M)'>

14 Jesus answered, “Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going.N)'> But you have no idea where I come fromO)'> or where I am going. 15 You judge by human standards;P)'> I pass judgment on no one.Q)'> 16 But if I do judge, my decisions are true, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me.R)'> 17 In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is true.S)'> 18 I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me.”T)'>

19 Then they asked him, “Where is your father?”

“You do not know me or my Father,”U)'> Jesus replied. “If you knew me, you would know my Father also.”V)'> 20 He spoke these words while teachingW)'> in the temple courts near the place where the offerings were put.X)'> Yet no one seized him, because his hour had not yet come.Y)'>

Dispute Over Who Jesus Is (John 8)

21 Once more Jesus said to them, “I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will dieZ)'> in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come.”AA)'>

22 This made the Jews ask, “Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, ‘Where I go, you cannot come’?”

23 But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.AB)'> 24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he,AC)'> you will indeed die in your sins.”

25 “Who are you?” they asked.

“Just what I have been telling you from the beginning,” Jesus replied. 26 “I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is trustworthy,AD)'> and what I have heard from him I tell the world.”AE)'>

27 They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28 So Jesus said, “When you have lifted upa]'>[a] the Son of Man,AF)'> then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.AG)'> 29 The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone,AH)'> for I always do what pleases him.”AI)'> 30 Even as he spoke, many believed in him.AJ)'>

Dispute Over Whose Children Jesus’ Opponents Are

31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching,AK)'> you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”AL)'>

33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendantsAM)'> and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”

34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.AN)'> 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever.AO)'> 36 So if the Son sets you free,AP)'> you will be free indeed. 37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me,AQ)'> because you have no room for my word. 38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence,AR)'> and you are doing what you have heard from your father.b]'>[b]AS)'>

39 “Abraham is our father,” they answered.

“If you were Abraham’s children,”AT)'> said Jesus, “then you wouldc]'>[c] do what Abraham did. 40 As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me,AU)'> a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God.AV)'> Abraham did not do such things. 41 You are doing the works of your own father.”AW)'>

“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”AX)'>

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me,AY)'> for I have come here from God.AZ)'> I have not come on my own;BA)'> God sent me.BB)'> 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil,BC)'> and you want to carry out your father’s desires.BD)'> He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.BE)'> 45 Yet because I tell the truth,BF)'> you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says.BG)'> The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

Jesus’ Claims About Himself

48 The Jews answered him, “Aren’t we right in saying that you are a SamaritanBH)'> and demon-possessed?”BI)'>

49 “I am not possessed by a demon,” said Jesus, “but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. 50 I am not seeking glory for myself;BJ)'> but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51 Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.”BK)'>

52 At this they exclaimed, “Now we know that you are demon-possessed!BL)'> Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that whoever obeys your word will never taste death. 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham?BM)'> He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”

54 Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself,BN)'> my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.BO)'> 55 Though you do not know him,BP)'> I know him.BQ)'> If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word.BR)'> 56 Your father AbrahamBS)'> rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw itBT)'> and was glad.”

57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born,BU)'> I am!”BV)'> 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him,BW)'> but Jesus hid himself,BX)'> slipping away from the temple grounds.

So believing in Jesus will give you eternal life.  Those that do not, are not of God but of Satan.  They do not hear Jesus.  And to repeat 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin?  THIS is the difference between man and Jesus.  Jesus was from God and his spirit never dies.  He is at the right hand of God but of course is present when 2 or more gather and pray for him.  He can somehow be everywhere at once.  Man cannot attempt to explain how God works.  Only God knows.
 
Good quotations from the Bible, but it just re-inforces that Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) was the Prophet and Messiah of God. Read those verses very carefully or if you have difficulty I can translate it for you in a language you could understand.
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Quote Empiricist Replybullet Posted: 10 February 2013 at 11:48am
Following up from last post, here is more about Jesus being the "Messiah" or chosen one in the old testament.  From Luke 9 Peter declares Jesus as the Messiah.  (note that Jesus does not claim this- he lets them say this.  He does not put words in their mouth.  Then there is the "Transfiguration" event, where God again announces his chosen son, further confirms God's intention for Jesus, and his uniqueness.   
 
Peter Declares That Jesus Is the MessiahT)'>U)'>

18 Once when Jesus was prayingV)'> in private and his disciples were with him, he asked them, “Who do the crowds say I am?”

19 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist;W)'> others say Elijah; and still others, that one of the prophets of long ago has come back to life.”X)'>

20 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

Peter answered, “God’s Messiah.”Y)'>

Jesus Predicts His Death

21 Jesus strictly warned them not to tell this to anyone.Z)'> 22 And he said, “The Son of ManAA)'> must suffer many thingsAB)'> and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law,AC)'> and he must be killedAD)'> and on the third dayAE)'> be raised to life.”AF)'>

23 Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me.AG)'> 24 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will save it.AH)'> 25 What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit their very self? 26 Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of themAI)'> when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.AJ)'>

27 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.”  ****Could this be from a vision?  One today has seen it- the child in the book Heaven is for Real- during a near death experience. 

The TransfigurationAK)'>

28 About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and JamesAL)'> with him and went up onto a mountain to pray.AM)'> 29 As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning. 30 Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. 31 They spoke about his departure,a]'>[a]AN)'> which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem. 32 Peter and his companions were very sleepy,AO)'> but when they became fully awake, they saw his glory and the two men standing with him. 33 As the men were leaving Jesus, Peter said to him, “Master,AP)'> it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.” (He did not know what he was saying.)

34 While he was speaking, a cloud appeared and covered them, and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. 35 A voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, whom I have chosen;AQ)'> listen to him.”AR)'> 36 When the voice had spoken, they found that Jesus was alone. The disciples kept this to themselves and did not tell anyone at that time what they had seen.   ***** God directly tells them Jesus is the chosen son and to listen to Jesus!  This is the second time.  Also they saw Moses and Elijah.  And Jesus became bright white, similar to Moses after God spoke with him.  This alone confirms Jesus as Messiah.  Jesus goes on to perform many miracles, healings etc. yet many Jews, Pharisees etc. simply cannot bear to believe Jesus is their Messiah for worldly reasons- money, power, etc.

Simon Peter tells us after the resurrection that they did not make all this up (2Peter 1)

16 For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power,AG)'> but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.AH)'> 17 He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”b]'>[b]AI)'> 18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.AJ)'>

19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable,AK)'> and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a lightAL)'> shining in a dark place, until the day dawnsAM)'> and the morning starAN)'> rises in your hearts.AO)'> 20 Above all, you must understandAP)'> that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from GodAQ)'> as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.AR)'>

Paul tells us in 2 Corinthians 3 (sorry for such a long post but this is revealing). Who was Paul?  Formerly Saul of Tarsus, a Pharisee in Jerusalem after the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ, swore to wipe out the new Christian church, called The Way. He got letters from the high priest, authorizing him to arrest any followers of Jesus in the city of Damascus.

On the Damascus Road, Saul and his companions were struck down by a blinding light, brighter than the noonday sun. Saul heard a voice say to him:

"Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" (Acts 9:4, NIV)

When Saul asked who was speaking to him, the voice replied, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do." (Acts 9:5-6, NIV)

The men with Saul heard the sound but did not see the vision of the risen Christ that Saul did. Saul was blinded. They led him by the hand into Damascus to a man named Judas, on Straight Street. For three days Saul was blind and did not eat or drink anything.

Meanwhile, Jesus appeared in a vision to a disciple in Damascus named Ananias and told him to go to Saul. Ananias was afraid because he knew Saul's reputation as a merciless persecutor of the church.

Jesus repeated his command, explaining that Saul was his chosen instrument to deliver the gospel to the Gentiles, their kings, and the people of Israel. So Ananias found Saul at Judas' house, praying for help. Ananias laid his hands on Saul, telling him Jesus had sent him to restore his sight and that Saul might be filled with the Holy Spirit.

Something like scales fell from Saul's eyes and he could see again. He arose and was baptized into the Christian faith. Saul ate, regained his strength, and stayed with the Damascus disciples three days.

2 Corinthians ch. 3- Paul speaking.
 
12 Therefore, since we have such a hope,Q)'> we are very bold.R)'> 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his faceS)'> to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull,T)'> for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenantU)'> is read.V)'> It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord,W)'> the veil is taken away.X)'> 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit,Y)'> and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.Z)'> 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplatea]'>[a]AA)'> the Lord’s glory,AB)'> are being transformed into his imageAC)'> with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. 

Present Weakness and Resurrection Life

Ch.4  Therefore, since through God’s mercyA)'> we have this ministry, we do not lose heart.B)'> Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways;C)'> we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God.D)'> On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to everyone’s conscienceE)'> in the sight of God. And even if our gospelF)'> is veiled,G)'> it is veiled to those who are perishing.H)'> The godI)'> of this ageJ)'> has blindedK)'> the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ,L)'> who is the image of God.M)'> For what we preach is not ourselves,N)'> but Jesus Christ as Lord,O)'> and ourselves as your servantsP)'> for Jesus’ sake. For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,”a]'>[a]Q)'> made his light shine in our heartsR)'> to give us the light of the knowledge of God’s glory displayed in the face of Christ.S)'>

But we have this treasure in jars of clayT)'> to show that this all-surpassing power is from GodU)'> and not from us. We are hard pressed on every side,V)'> but not crushed; perplexed,W)'> but not in despair; persecuted,X)'> but not abandoned;Y)'> struck down, but not destroyed.Z)'> 10 We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus,AA)'> so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body.AB)'> 11 For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake,AC)'> so that his life may also be revealed in our mortal body. 12 So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.AD)'>

13 It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken.”b]'>[b]AE)'> Since we have that same spirit ofc]'>[c] faith,AF)'> we also believe and therefore speak, 14 because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the deadAG)'> will also raise us with JesusAH)'> and present us with you to himself.AI)'> 15 All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgivingAJ)'> to overflow to the glory of God.

16 Therefore we do not lose heart.AK)'> Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardlyAL)'> we are being renewedAM)'> day by day. 17 For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all.AN)'> 18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen,AO)'> since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.



Edited by Empiricist - 10 February 2013 at 11:53am
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 11 February 2013 at 9:44pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren


Originally posted by Nausheen


So who is the scorpion and who is the frog?
Sorry for being so dumb.

Asking because a muslim should not be like that scorpion because islam teaches one to go back on 'fitra' and human 'fitra' is different from scorpions :)

A muslim can also not be a frog. We are taught to be careful with those who we are sure of receiving harm from.


 
Salaam
 
Being brought up in London, England I was far away from the goodness of Islam as is the West is from the East. The Brits have lost the importance of teaching children manners and basis etiquette. They are basically left to fend for themselves and learn as they go. My parents never taught me anything, what little goodness I possess I got it by knowing what is wrong and what is right.
 
I think we are different people at the differing ends of the spectrum. I can imagine you being taught Islmic manners in how to behave and how to treat people from a very early age. Contrast that with the growing up in a godless country like England. To make things worse, England was also a very racist country (still is to an extent) and one had to be tough to survive. Foul language had to be used with every other word. If you ddidn't then you are thought of as being abnormal.
 
Like I said I'm trying to shed my formal skin as I know now that my nature is not right according to the teaching of the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam). I know the following hadith very well and I do strive against myself but sometimes satan gets the better of me.
 
Narrated AbuHurayrah:<div ="text_details">

The Prophet ([IMG]http://sunnah.com/images/sallallahu_alaihi_wa_sallam.png" height="15" alt="sallallahu%20alaihi%20wa%20sallam" />) said: The most perfect believer in respect of faith is he who is best of them in manners.



Assalamualaikum,

InshAllah IC is not boring lately.

Im sorry for the delay in responding.

Thank you for taking the time to entertain my interference to the current discussion.

Believing, though a difficult decisions to arrive at is a one time event. What follows is practicing the religion which is a lifetime test. Nobody is free from the trials of practice.
Through your post I reaslized its a real blessing to be brought up in an envt. where I could learn calmness and composure. Alhamdulillah it goes a long way.
I agree its hard to unlearn the rough ways you must have had to muster as survival skills of the society.
For myself to face the harsh side of the world is very difficult. I find myself so unprepared and overwhelmed on several occasions.

Contrasting that with yourself, do you find the soft ways of some people irritating or frustrating? Just a little curious.

Trying to emulate the prophet sallallahu alaihe wassallam is the bottom line of religion. The Quran says : If you love Allah follow me, Allah will love you ... so u're on right track. Jihad al-akbar can be understood through qias of Chapter 91 v1-10 Ash-Shams.

btw, I like your anger, and think when you decide to hold its reigns better it will be channelized more productively.

Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 11 February 2013 at 10:36pm
Originally posted by Nausheen

 
 
Contrasting that with yourself, do you find the soft ways of some people irritating or frustrating? Just a little curious.


tr
 
Yes I do find people like you frustrating. :P
 
However having said that it is a quality that is the best in humanity. Anybody who does not possess it must strive to acquire it. Hence we must try to emulate the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam).
 
I believe there is a hadith in which the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) tells us that one can change his nature through prayer and supplication.
 
Btw you said it yourself that you get angry too when Islam and the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) is mocked. You probably have better understanding of how to control anger and be civil to people. Channelling anger is a great character to have, especially a Muslim Alhamdulilah.
 
Anger leads to hate, and hate leads to the fire.
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Quote Empiricist Replybullet Posted: 15 February 2013 at 12:38am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Empiricist

You are correct- but you cannot comprehend it.  Jesus is a human being, as we all are.  We also have spirits, like Jesus.  Where does our spirit come from?  God.  But JESUS' spirit was GOD.  I guess this is why he is called Son of God.  You only try to find fault, some way to say it cannot be true.  Some little detail.  This is legalism.  You are a hypocrite and a Pharisee.  You will not see the kingdom of heaven, no matter how many times you pray to Allah today.  I don't think your Allah is the true God.  I think he is a false God.  
I pray to JESUS, who GOD gave us to be the link to God.  God knows it is hard if not impossible for us to worhsip something we cannot see.  So he gave us Jesus, an man with the spirit of God, perfection.  Don's ask how, or why, it doesn't matter.  Just accept that God is doing this for OUR benefit, not to have us go to Hell if we don't follow Muhammed hundreds of years later, with a much different message.  Sorry.  Cannot be.  Muhammed is a false prophet.
 
The following is for Empiricist.
 
Muhsin Khan
 
And nothing prevents men from believing, now when the guidance (the Quran) has come to them, and from asking Forgiveness of their Lord, except that the ways of the ancients be repeated with them (i.e. their destruction decreed by Allah), or the torment be brought to them face to face?
18:55-57
It is difficult to understand what this verse is saying.  The translation seems incorrect.  The english grammer is not correct and confuses the meaning.  What does or the torment be brought to them face to face? mean? 
What is the passage trying to say? 
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